I’m indeed busy—but I do try to tie up loose ends when I can, and I enjoy your entertainment value. I have no desire to muddle anything and have not done so—I have tried to make this crystal clear for such as you. I honor the Legionnaires on the 16th of March and will always do so. What I will not do is glorify the Legion or try to revise history in a pathetic manner. Nazi Germany lost the War. I think that’s hunky-dory. The Soviet Union won the war—that’s ugly. There is nothing in what you write that takes into account the fact that the Legion was defending a dying attempt at German domination of Europe. Behind the German lines, civilians were still being slaughtered en masse. On the other side of the lines, civilians would also continue to be slaughtered en masse. You answer a simple question, my dear Courlander—do you prefer Nazis to Soviets? If so—why? Details, please.

Regards,
/P

First, it was Germany that invaded Latvia. Not all Germans were Nazis. That is just like using America instead of United States of America.
I suggest you not try to tie up loose ends for if you do you will not get anything else done for several years.
I will not get into who is more amusing to who for that would be an endless thread.
The revisionism comes from people like you for the Legionnaires have from day of inception claimed they were fighting for Latvia. It is and was the Russian propagandists that said they were fighting for Germany and you parrot their views. What lies were told is not the issue but the beliefs people had at that time. Ignore your hindsight when talking about this period of time. No one at that time had an idea of what was to come.
If you are trying to brand me then it will not work. With hindsight , all those who fled Latvia to the West should tip the scale slightly to Germany for they could look back and see that they could have been next on the trains to Siberia. If your parents had not left Latvia because the German invasion let them, where would you be Peter?

The revisionism comes from people like you for the Legionnaires have from day of inception claimed they were fighting for Latvia.

But that’s exactly what I said—here we can agree perfectly. And? The fact is that they were not fighting for Latvia—they were fighting for Nazi Germany. Intent on the one hand—reality on the other?

It is and was the Russian propagandists that said they were fighting for Germany and you parrot their views.

Never, dear Courlander—and that you can say that means that your are either a moron or a liar.

What lies were told is not the issue but the beliefs people had at that time.

Really? I would suggest that you meditate upon that formulation. In that case, every Soviet could be innocent because he or she believed in the Soviet Union. The workers would run the world! The chambermaid would be victorious!

Ignore your hindsight when talking about this period of time.

Why? Do you ignore hindsight when considering the Baltic Germans, Andrievs Niedra, or the great Ulmanis?

I do not blame the Legionnaires and have never done so, ever, in any context—but that is not the point. What you are saying also applies to pretty much anybody with “beliefs held at that time”—doesn’t it, logically? What’s the difference between a kurelietis and a Red Partisan and Bangerskis? Please—be specific. 

No one at that time had an idea of what was to come.

Yes and no. In that case, exonerate all Latvian Communists? Pērkonkrusts? Isn’t it more about lots of people with lots of ideas of what was to come?

And the subject of this thread is as much about this time as it as about that time, is it not? How do we mark 16 March now?

If you are trying to brand me then it will not work.

I didn’t think branding was a common practice in Latvia. Is it where you are?

If your parents had not left Latvia because the German invasion let them, where would you be Peter?

My father deserted the Legion in Berlin in the final days of the Reich and fled to Flensburg as a civilian. My mother was evacuated and a d.p. there. They met, married in Bonn, and produced me in Chicago. I have no idea how I could have gotten born were it not for the war. Do you have an excellent idea of why you were born, when and where? Did you ever notice that a large number of people only exist because some Russian soldier met some nice Latvian chick?

I live in the first house in Daugavpils to be “denationalized”—“Akts Nrs. 1”; my mother-in-law was in Germany but came back—she was my mother’s best friend, as it happens. She did considerable hard labor in the Far North of the USSR. I know her side of the story, and my mother’s side of the story—and my father’s side of the story, and my wife’s side of the story, and Red Partisans’ side of the story, and some Legionnaires’ side of the story, etc.

My wife exists, I think. So where would she be if her mother had not come back from Germany? Where Andrejs is, or Anita is—or you are?

How do you turn fate into such a narrow and perverse obligation? Did Latvia suffer a Third Awakening in the late 1980s, or the trimda? Do you really want to claim that the trimda was responsible for Latvia’s rebirth? And that is not to diminish the trimda—I’m an ex-trimdinieks, and I happily and vociferously acknowledge that. It is to ask you what the f___ you are talking about—because it makes no sense, at least to me.

Vysu lobu,
/P

P.S. “First, it was Germany that invaded Latvia.” You’d better get your facts straight. Germany invaded the USSR. De jure or de facto, Nazi Germany never took the Republic of Latvia into account at all.

There you go again and muddle things up. Could you please tell me how , if you were draft age in 1943 Latvia , you would not feel you were not fighting for Latvia when you leave Rīga after singing God Bless Latvia and hearing patriotic speeches. When the onslaught began in Germany , the only fighting the Latvians did was to stay alive and retreat to the western lines whatever way they could.
Sorry but Ulmanis (one who rules you) was not involved with the Legion or part of this thread.
I am sorry you are lacking in the English language but seeing you were born in Chicago I can see why. Brand can also mean to mark or label with disgrace or infamy; stigmatize . Many people from Illinois come to Iowa for an education.
I am quit aware of where I was born. I have a birth certificate in Latvian stating I was born to Latvian parents in Liepaja Latvia.
Latvians marrying Russians are not the issue on this thread unless it bothers you that much. I can not complain for I married outside my race (an US citizen) and my son married a Cambodian lady while living there.
I must have touched a nerve to have you respond with vulgarity.
You must believe that the Baltic Countries voluntary joined the Soviet Union to make such a foolish remark. I know that they did not and was occupied, so for Germany to go through them was an invasion. There was no invitation from any legal Latvian government to enter their territory. Under League OF Nations rules that constituted an act of aggression or an invasion.
I suggest you take a break.

As another Chicago-born forum participant, I will try my best to make my English understandable.  I am “quit aware” this may be difficult, but let’s see what happens.

My father was of draft age in 1943.  The things that sort of gave him a clue that he was fighting on the German side were who conscripted him, who gave him a uniform, who gave the orders, the language on his IDs, and last of all that he was considered a German POW over in Belgium.

“Where would you be if your parents hadn’t fled?” Heck, where would I be had my dad’s car broken down on the way to visit his sister, who had a friend from the DP camp days visiting?  Where would I be if my mother had been ill that night and stayed home?  That is a particularly useless question.  Most of the Latvian nation, however, stayed, and they would be as they are.  My dad’s brother stayed - he went on to have two very accomplished sons.  My mom’s cousin stayed; her daughter is a teacher.

A veritable cornucopia of Kurlandish crackpotness. Where to start - o where to start....

“While being busy do some research about Lithuania. They had 56,000+ soldiers serving the Reich. When they found out that the Russians were at their door they tried to organize a l\Legion but it was to late.”

The operative term being “they”. “They” was the Nazis. “They” tried to form a Legion in Lithuania but failed.

So, you admit that a Lithuanian Legion never existed ? This was a problem for you before. I’m hoping that you had a chance to confer with your Merlot extensively prior to changing your position ?

There were Lithuanian individuals who volunteered to fight on the Nazi side - as well there were Lithuanians who volunteered with the Red Army and some who volunteered on Franco’s side - and even others who admired Mussolini. The Lithuanian Army never served the Reich, never wore the decrepit Reichs uniforms or reported to the Reich Command. This is plainly known and understood - even by the Russians.

Ah, but news is slow to reach Iowa. Even 60+ years on !

“First, it was Germany that invaded Latvia. Not all Germans were Nazis. That is just like using America instead of United States of America.”

As Peteris pointed out, the Nazis invaded the soviet union - I believe your history books should confirm that. I’ll also add that your analogy regarding America/United States is rather inept as America is a geographical reference while Nazism is political and ideological. They have no relation whatsoever.

I recommend that Hauptman Merlot be given the chance to proofread your posts for accuracy prior to hitting that Submit Post button.

“You must believe that the Baltic Countries voluntary joined the Soviet Union to make such a foolish remark. I know that they did not and was occupied, so for Germany to go through them was an invasion. There was no invitation from any legal Latvian government to enter their territory. Under League OF Nations rules that constituted an act of aggression or an invasion.”

Under the League of Nations - conscripting locals to serve in the army of an invading nation was also plainly illegal. Given this - how does your defense of the Nazi forced conscription of Latvian nationals work logically in a nationalist sense ? The violation of international law doesnt consider the intentions or beliefs of those conscripted. 

The Nazi formation of the Waffen SS legions was illegal. The formation of these legions did not in any way present to the Great Powers that the Baltics were ready to resume an active role in new post war Europe as free nations when their military structures - militaries being essential to the defense of independent nations - so readily crossed over to the occupiers side.

Lithuania did not have a Waffen SS Legion, but Lithuania can not be described as being violently opposed to Nazi occupation either. Collaboration was a problem.

“I suggest you take a break.”

I was going to suggest the same for you. Would you mind letting Hauptman Merlot post for a while ? His grammar is easier to work through - regardless of race…

Vidas

As I sit and wait for my delayed flight (weather delays) I can answer. Wifi is great.
Ahh Vidas , the token Lithuanian on LOL. I was hoping to push your button and I guess I did.
I never stated that there was a Lithuanian Legion but did state that they tried to form one. I will gladly argue the point of how many Lithuanians joined the ranks of the German Army. The general count up to 1944 is about 56,000.
In the thread about the book “The Mascot” we discussed the Lithuanian units doing the dirty works against the Jews. Some of the people who survived remember the Lithuanian uniforms and others say they were dressed in German outfits.
Are you as Peter C. claiming that the Germans invaded the U.S.S.R. and not Lithuania for it was a part of Russia. It is not Hauptman Merlot but Hauptman Shiraz from Australia that is guiding me this week. Australians make some damn good wine, you should try some so it would free your mind from some of the abnormal ideas you seem to have.
We were not discussing illegal conscription but the ideals of the Legion. I suggest if you want to talk about legalities then start a new thread.
As for Lithuanians serving the Reich I suggest you check your facts.
“Unlike her Estonian and Latvian neighbors though, Lithuania never provided Germany with a National Legion during WWII, although from the very start of the German occupation quite a few volunteers came forward. It is estimated that as many as 50,000 eventually served in German sponsored units during 1941-45. In fact, many volunteers were initially deserters from the Soviet 29th light Infantry Corps - a unit which the Soviets formed enmasse from the entire Lithuanian ground forces after their occupation of the country in 1939. The other major source of volunteers and conscripts during the initial stage of German occupation were the numerous ad-hoc units formed as the Soviets were fleeing. For the most part, as in the other Baltic nations, these Lithuanian ad-hoc units were disbanded once the German occupation was complete. In some case though select units provided the basis for new self defense formations formed by the Germans for security operations. It is from these origins that the organizational history of Lithuanian units under Axis occupation begins.
As mentioned above, Lithuanians were for the most part formed into auxiliary support units for security operations. The first formal unit to be formed was known as the Lituanische Hunterschaften which was later used as a foundation for a series of self defense units known as Selbschutz-Bataillonen. The Selbschutz-Bataillonen units were later brought under the control of the German organization of uniformed frontline police, the Ordungspolizie, and renamed as Schutzmannschaft-Bataillonen or Schumas. The Schuma units were universally renamed and reformed into Polizie-Bataillonen in May of 1943. Nearly all units were formed in battalion-sized units consisting of between 500 and 600 men each. They were primarily assigned to rear-area security duties, but as the Soviets drew nearer to Lithuania, they also saw service fighting the Soviets directly. These Lithuanian units numbered a total of 35 Battalions during WWII, consisting of units numbered 1-15, 251-257, 263-265, and 301-310. 13 of these units, numbers 263-265 and 301-310, were never fully trained and were disbanded before they could be employed in combat.

These units were posted variously to Poland, Byelorussia, the other Baltic countries, and even as far away as the southern Ukraine. As the Soviets approached, the Germans took to grouping 3 or 4 Lithuanian Polizie-Bataillonen into regimental-sized units know as Lituanische Freiwilligen-Infanterie-Regimenter. Three such units were formed as the Soviets reached the border and they were sent directly to the front in the attempt at holding back the Soviet onslaught in late late 1944 and early 1945.
The duties of the Lithuanian units was mainly rear-area security and anti-partisan operations, with occasional frontline service. As they served as auxiliaries to the Ordnungspolizei in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union, they often supported of the SD Einsatzkommando’s nefarious cleansing operations. The Lithuanian units were often put under control of the RSHA - the Reich Main Security Office, and the HSSPF - the Höhere SS-Polizei Fuhrer of the Ostland regions, and were at times participants in operations against civilians and those deemed bandits in the rear areas of the Eastern Front.
Aside from the above mentioned 38 units, there were also five Lituanische Bau-Bataillonen numbered I-V that were formed during 1943. All five units were attached to German Pioneer units under the control of Armeegruppe Nord. The commanding officers were all Lithuanian. The operations of these units consisted largely of road and railway construction and the building of defensive works. Initially, the units were not armed, but as partisan activity became increasingly heavier they were provided various light weapons to protect and fight against the partisan forces. Interestingly, many members of the Lithuanian construction units were asked to join the Waffen-SS, of which up to 40% eventually did, although no Lithuanian national unit was ever formed under the Waffen-SS, and all volunteers served on an individual basis.
During the summer of 1944, as Soviet forces began to reach the regions of Lithuania an emergency formation was formed named the Fatherland Defense Force. This new formation consisted of small groups of retreating armed Lithuanian troops organized into two regiments under the overall command of a German officer. This new formation was employed in defensive positions near Papiles, Lithuania, where in early October of 1944, it was engaged in very heavy defensive combat with Soviet forces. Crippling losses caused the formation to pull back and a general retreat ensued. The survivors of the formation, about 1,000 men, were later regrouped in East Prussia as a new unit known as the Lithuanian Engineer Battalion. This new formation consisted of 8 companies, and was tasked with working on defensive emplacements along the Baltic Coast. This unit too found itself caught within the path of the Soviet westward advance and was totally destroyed shortly after formation. Only a very few men managed to escape via the Baltic Sea.”
Case closed.

Mr. courlander states:

“. . . many members of the Lithuanian construction units were asked to join the Waffen-SS, of which up to 40% eventually did, . . .”

As Mr. courlander, as usual, does not disclose his sources, I am curious as to which Waffen-SS units – regiments, divisions, did those Lithuanians were assigned to.

Mr. L. L.

Well, I still like Hauptman Merlot better. Hauptman Shiraz needs to go sleep it off.

Kurlander wrote just a little while ago to which I responded:

“Sorry to contradict you Peter C but the Lithuanians did not refuse to help form a Legion but were to slow to figure out that the Russians were returning. When they realized what was happening it was to late and the soldiers in Kurzeme were cut off from Germany. They just choose to not write about the 55,000 plus who joined but never got to serve but that is a different story.”

This is idiotic and false. Hauptman Kurlander should stick to counting Eisernes Kreuzen awards in deepest darkest Iowa and leave Lithuania out of his revisionist fantasyland.

Pulkininkas Plechavicius, who lived 3 doors down from me on Montgomery Ave in Chicago while I was growing up, disbanded the Rinktine in 1944 after Jackeln demanded that the Lithuanian militia wear German uniforms, greet others in like uniform with Heil Hitler, answer to German command directly and agree to fight for the German side outside of Lithuanias borders.

Other nations may have agreed to abide by those rules - some quite willingly and proudly to this day Hauptman Kurlander. Lithuanias armed forces though - did not. Lithuanians Rinktine refused and resisted successfully on principle because the Nazis broke their promises again and again.

Maybe Heil Hitler isnt particularly objectionable to you Hauptman Kurlander - but it was to the Lithuanian militia.

Plechavicius, Reklaitis and others simply and directly refused to accept Nazi demands to form an SS division. Lithuania considered itself occupied by the Germans, as per statements of its provisional government. This status was unacceptable under the Nazis as it was with the Soviets - and presented statements equally to that effect.

http://www.lituanus.org/1986/86_4_02.htm

Vidas

As to Lithuanians volunteers serving in your proud Reich - I didnt disagree with what you wrote. I’ll post my response again:

There were Lithuanian individuals who volunteered to fight on the Nazi side - as well there were Lithuanians who volunteered with the Red Army and some who volunteered on Franco’s side - and even others who admired Mussolini. The Lithuanian Army never served the Reich, never wore the decrepit Reichs uniforms or reported to the Reich Command. This is plainly known and understood - even by the Russians.

Ah, but news is slow to reach Iowa. Even 60+ years on !

“In the thread about the book “The Mascot” we discussed the Lithuanian units doing the dirty works against the Jews. Some of the people who survived remember the Lithuanian uniforms and others say they were dressed in German outfits.”

Sure, and in this thread and others about Lithuanias resistance to the formation of a Waffen SS Legion it was pointed out to you again and again that the German command reacted to this resistance by sending Lithuanian leaders and scholars to the Stutthof and Salaspils concentration camps.

I’ve never argued that Lithuanians didnt do bad things. They certainly did - which again reinforces my argument that when the Great Powers reviewed all this after the war - the Baltic nations didnt seem to have made the necessary efforts to resist occupation during the war.

Your standing proud for your Reich certainly doesnt say much at all for Latvia.

“Are you as Peter C. claiming that the Germans invaded the U.S.S.R. and not Lithuania for it was a part of Russia. It is not Hauptman Merlot but Hauptman Shiraz from Australia that is guiding me this week. Australians make some damn good wine, you should try some so it would free your mind from some of the abnormal ideas you seem to have. ”

Huh ?? Seriously. Lay off the sauce man…

“We were not discussing illegal conscription but the ideals of the Legion. I suggest if you want to talk about legalities then start a new thread.”

No, I like this thread just fine. Can you answer this for me please. Any of you… Merlot, Shiraz, Chardonnay....

Under the League of Nations - conscripting locals to serve in the army of an invading nation was also plainly illegal. Given this - how does your defense of the Nazi forced conscription of Latvian nationals work logically in a nationalist sense ?

Vidas

Kurlander doesnt write anything of his own in complete sentences that make sense anyway. He copies and pastes other peoples work without attribution here and in other places.  Pathetic and sad ? Yes.

LL wrote:

“As Mr. courlander, as usual, does not disclose his sources, I am curious as to which Waffen-SS units – regiments, divisions, did those Lithuanians were assigned to.”

Kurlander ripped the Pipes article off of this site:

http://www.feldgrau.com/lith.html

The issue is addressed in the very next sentence:

although no Lithuanian national unit was ever formed under the Waffen-SS, and all volunteers served on an individual basis.

Thank you, Mr. Vidas. 

I, personally, do not attach credence to Pipes’ forum entries. Much of it is, in my opinion, an interchange of conversations between pipes’ berkeley brownies, New Jersey perverts, and “wish to be a nazi-hero” trailers. Yes, there are some good contributions, but in each case one should be accompanied by a verifiable source or reputable name.  Pipes does not cut.

However, as Mr. courlander posted the allegedly correct figures, let us make a quick calculation:

Forty percent of 35 battalions with 500 + men each would make a force of about 7000 to 8000 members of the Waffen-SS.  May I repeat my original question – which Waffen-SS units, such as regiments or divisions, absorbed this man-power?

After the war I was member of “Melnie” (sorry, I do not know Lithuanian call name for this service). In my battalion were quite a few Lithuanians with prior service in “German military “, but unlike Estonians and Latvians, they did not acknowledge any connections with “waffen-units”. 

As it often happens, we all know what a designation means, yet are surprised that other persons may have a different meaning for the same words.

Latvian Legion.  Originally a military unit ordered by Hitler himself, was expanded to encompass all Latvians serving in all military branches.

“The definition “Latvian Legion” comprises actually all Latvian military units, which, as a part of the German military forces, participated in the struggle against Bolshevism in the Second World War. “ (Silgailis, Latvian Legion, 1986, p.7)

In perspective, the Silgailis’ definition would also apply to Lithuanian anti-bolshevik forces under German command.
Mr. L. L.

Anita wrote: “My father was of draft age in 1943.  The things that sort of gave him a clue that he was fighting on the German side were who conscripted him, who gave him a uniform, who gave the orders, the language on his IDs, and last of all that he was considered a German POW over in Belgium.”

Anita, I assumed that your father was a Latvian citizen.  Maybe he was really a German citizen.  Why else would any citizen of Latvia fight “on the German side?” Why didn’t your father just join the Latvian Army and fight for Latvia against Germany?  Oh - that’s right - you forgot to mention:  Latvia was occupied by Germany. Now I understand why you wrote that he took the German uniform the Germans gave him.  Wasn’t it illegal (against war “rules") though for the Germans (the occupiers) to conscript the Latvians (the occupied)?  Be careful, next thing you know, someone is going to try and tell you that your father “volunteered” to be a soldier with the Voluntary Waffen SS ‘fighting on the German side.’ How did he manage to get out of the German POW camp in Belgium?  I’m glad you made it to Chicago, but I didn’t think they were readily allowing SS Nazi soldiers who fought for Hitler to come to the U.S.?  I have to believe your father told the immigration people he wasn’t really fighting for Hitler but for someone or something else.  Do you think he told them he was really fighting for Latvia?  Maybe the Latvians just came up with that story to get to the U.S.

PS Please don’t bother correcting any of my grammar, spelling, and typo mistakes.  Thanks, but really, friends first.

Why didn’t your father just join the Latvian Army and fight for Latvia against Germany?  Oh - that’s right - you forgot to mention:  Latvia was occupied by Germany.

I don’t understand how it’s different compared to Latvians fighting on the Soviet side, who were conscripted, volunteered, whatever, to the Red Army.

http://latviansonline.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/32664/

Historian Andrievs Ezergailis:

...latviešu leģions tā organizēšanas laikā bija tautas kolektīvs pasākums, tāpēc šodien arī būtu jārīkojas kolektīvi, iztaujājot par to. Būtu kļūda Latviešu leģiona atceres dienu atdot naida kūdīšanai krievu un latviešu ekstrēmistiem. Bez valsts līmeņa politiskas vadības leģiona problēma turpinās palikt kā vaļēja brūce. Taču, to risinot, latviešu pieejai nevajadzētu būt defensīvai, bet maksimālai. Varbūt ir pat iespējams apgriezt polaritātes, negatīvo uzsvaru pārvēršot pozitīvā: leģionāru kara noziedznieku viepli pārveidot Eiropas līmeņa varoņa un brīvības cīnītāja imidžā.[/i] ... (my bold & italics).