Well .. I have to say that stirred an interesting debate.

Bruno asks: What do you know about Dievturibu ?  What do you think they practice ?  What are their creeds ?

But, Bruno and I have been in discussion before and that debate was well covered in the “Do Latvians belive in God” forum. It was well spoken by many as to what they believe, what they practice, and well “creeds”, I’m not sure if any advocate of Dievturiba really expressed that sufficient to anyone’s understanding, my resulting statement that “dievturiba sucks” was based on their writings and explanations.

Sniks says:  He does not seem to comprehend that faith is a private or personal matter with many people. ( speaking about me ) . Is it really? Is it you who decides what god you should worship, or was it God that chose to put you on this earth so you could contemplate who He is?
You make it sounds like it’s our choice as to which god we serve, or to serve none at all. Hmmm… yes it is your choice. The bible says “ I put before you life and death, choose life”. God gives you free will to choose as you please. The choice you present, based on “what suits ME best” is what will give you eternal death if you choose wrong.

sniks says: “while my knowledge of Dievturiba is quite limited”
Well .. if it’s limited, why enter a conversation on “dievturiba sucks” unless you have something to say?

Sniks also asks: “Once again - I will ask - aside from personal readings - have you formally studied theology”
My answer is, what is formal study? Here we are at Easter time, and you sound like the Pharisee’s and the Sanhendrin who questioned Jesus teachings. Did he study theology?
I study the bible.

sniks says: but if you cannot discuss anything without just simply saying there is only one way
My answer is: it wasn’t me that said there was only one way. It was Jesus who said that. If you want me to look up chapter and verse next time, I will gladly do it.

To Ojars:
Perhaps the Loudan Wainwright music makes the song palatable.
But ...
The first verse says not much
The 2nd verse first tells the truth and then adds a silliness when it says “it’s easy”
The 3rd verse is not biblical and is poetic license
The 4th verse makes no sense

Same as with many songs. They try to be clever and deliver something.. whatever that is, to those that it feeds.

sniks reply to your song was:
if we could convince Ikabods that in many cases we are looking at religion, and not faith.

Good God sniks, religion is crap! All religion is crap! Faith is the only thing that matters.

To Ilze:
Your response was ... well .. not much.

“We do not revere the creation more or less than the creator.
Dievturiba and latvianism ARE intertwined”

Actually, I don’t understand your response. But your emphasis on ARE intertwined is actually at the CORE of my post. When I posted “do Latvians believe in God” I was shocked at the lack of response from Christains and the overwhealming response from latians who thought John, Laima, and the other host of gods written about appeared to be the soup de jour for latvians. How sad for all of you. Dievturiba offers you nothing but national identify. Oh..... how great is that?

Spectators comments were what? mediation? let’s find the middle ground. Well written, thought out, but.. oh I don’t know.

Ojars says: Sometimes it appears that the world was created by a committee
As you know, my belief is the world was created by God. Perhaps that committee may have include the Son and the Holy Ghost, but that’s as far as I can accept this thought.

Sniks says: but when we become disatisfied, it is very simple to find a new place of worship

Isn’t that right for most of the world, if something doesn’t suit us, we just go find like minded individuals who will agree with “our"philosophy of the world. This isn’t faith or religion. It’s self appeasement.

Mr LL’s last post was interesting and difficult to comment on. I’m not sure where he stands. I think, being a bit older than myself as he talks about life in the 30’s, that Dievturiba was not much in discussion in those days, and perhaps is a “new age” or for some an “Enlightend age of renewal” . But .. that’s my interpretation, LL will have to advise himself if he disagrees.

AS I said from the beginning, the posts have been interesting and an invigorating debate. There are few defenders of Dievturiba so far. More I’ve encountered the “how dare you day such things even tho I don’t believe in it myself” kind of comments. There are plenty of idiots I’ve run into who want to convice themselves that John, Laima, and who knows who else are gods that all Latvians should know. But I say, spend some time reading the Bible and find out who your God really is.

As Bruno says: Lisu labi

Please Google “ Jezus glabejs”

Some of the sites found are:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Latviesu/ Atbildes uz jautājumiem par Bībeli

http://meeting.oho.lv/meeting.php?cmd=intereses&grupaid=13&subgrupaid=178&temaid=1260067
Sākums > Reliģija > Kristietība

http://www.ebaznica.lv/epolemika/

All of those sites have questions, answered, debates - whatever, without somebody calling you an idiot in every post.

Mr LL’s post was indeed excellent - and Ikabod obviously cannot even make up his own mu=ind on the differences between worship, faith and religion. He in tertwines all three, but prfofesses that there is only faith. Obviously his response that Mr LL could not have experienced much re Dievturiba shows exactly how little he researched Dievturiba. IkaKNob - if you had looked at anything you would have seen that Dievturiba was quite a thing in the 20’s. Furthermore - who are they worshipping - GOD - and there are no other gods before him - etc.

As to what qualifies as formal study - are you for real??? What do you think qualifies as formal study. Certainly not TV evangelism. Remember Jim and Tammy Faye? At least Dievturiba does not bilk individuals of their hard earned money. While hardly a christian though IkaKnob - have you ever considered getting a labotomy?

Should I make fun of sniks for his last post?
mu=ind tertwines prfofesses IkaKNob Dievturiba was quite a thing in the 20’s ( oooooh, now that makes it a system worthy of praise and worship doesn’t it? quite a thing in the 20’s was it?)

Nah, it’s not worth it. He’s doing a good job of it all by himself.  The point still stands, no one has refuted it in any intellectual manner. Dievturiba is a useless pagan belief, and should be discarded by Latvians of reasonable intelligence immediately. The longer you waste your time on this crap, the longer you are not alive.

He is risen. He is risen indeed.

sniks - 21 March 2008 06:10 PM

.....Dievturiba was quite a thing in the 20’s. Furthermore - who are they worshipping - GOD - and there are no other gods before him - etc.

Once more, some history.

In the 20’s, the whole latvian nation was ‘finding itself’.  Latvians were declaring themselves separate but equal to all the other (European) nations.  Other nations (England, France, Germany etc) each had their own national identity.  The latvian people were looking for ways to do this:  designing their own money, stamps, government seals, armed forces, etc. etc. 

Before they did much research, the people designed ‘new latvian folk costumes’ which seems comical now.  With proper research, our regional folk dress mens’ and women’s was once again brought into proper usage.  American indians use the word ‘regalia’ for their folk apparel not folk costume.

At the same time, in the 20’s, there were people who said “Other nations have a national religion; we should too”.  But how to go about doing this?  Should it be based on a hero like “Lacplesis” ?
Brastins thought to look at what was alrady there, recently collected and organized latvian folk songs.  If some common songs speak about Dievs ( Dievins) then maybe there are more, he thought.
So Ernests Brastins set about examining our old, old heritage; that wisdom and ethics and knowledge handed down from our ancestors. 

The thing about folklore - every generation sifts through it to filter out the stuff that culture’s people no longer find suitable.  By the time Krisjanis Barons though to collect & write down what people still remembered, he was just writing down what was STILL IN USE in that era.  And just look at the quantity of heritage he gathered!!  And realize, that he/his assistents didn’t cover even 100% of Latvia’s territory - so many more folk songs may have gone ungathered.

OK, now years have passed.  People have said it is impossibe to date our folk songs.  Maybe, maybe not.  On the one hand, they were STILL IN USE in the 1800’s.  On the other hand for instance, some funeral songs speak of practices that archeologists can date to 3000 years ago.  Here is the song, here is the grave - the song speaks about putting a pot of honey in the grave, and wouldn’t you know it - there are pots with honey residue in 3000 year old graves.....  Hmmmm.  Not exactly conclusive, but it certainly suggests, that some of those songs might have been handed down 3000 years, and each succesive generation found then still useful.

So.  Brastins sifted through our 3000 + year old heritage and found so much in that explains our culture’s relationship with God.  He compiled his efforts, and gave this new/old religious movent the name “Dievturiba” which loosly translated means “holding to God”

And since then, Dievturi keep dipping into OUR OWN HERITAGE - yes, the heritage left to you and me both, and we still keep finding relevence therein to our lives today.  The religions formed more recently than our own heritage (christianity, islam, b’hai to name a few) and those formed in lands far away (shinto, hinduism etc), and meant for those people in those places, really holds no specific interest for us. 

If somebody’s teachings make sense to you, and you don’t harm other people in your life, good for you.  If you call other people “idiots” just because they don’t agree with you, then you really haven’t learned enough of those teachings.  I learned alot about Jesus & what is in the Bible in my childhood, and one thing is really obvious - he never called anyone an idiot.  So, WWJD?

Dievturiba is a useless pagan belief, and should be discarded by Latvians of reasonable intelligence immediately. The longer you waste your time on this crap, the longer you are not alive.

Ak vai. I try not to debate religion or politics, they are in many ways quite the same. However, since you call the godliness of the participants here into question, I’ll be more than happy to oblige. I call your Latvian-ness into question as you hold nothing but disdain for a tradition which connects us to our collective Latvian past. To earn respect, you must give respect. Since you only demand respect, you will receive none here.

Our dear Ikabods also seals his own doom. Yes Ikabod - I was having a little trouble keying - it happens. If I am reading your last post correctly - you have stated that no one has been able to refute Dievturiba in an intelligent manner. You are however the only one that is trying to refuite it - and yes - I agree - you have made a pitiful effort at it. Your seem oblivious to any reasonable discussion - yet you close with “ He is risen.” “ He is risen indeed.” It has been a while for me - but from what I recall of those particular services/masses - did they not end with “for he is a GOOD and LOVING God and He LOVES mankind.” Funny - I don’t see that we are in any way damned by that. But believe what you choose Ikabods - “but judge not - lest ye...” - I guess you cannot understand that one either.