You people that think Dievturiba has any merit/ creduence are lost in the worst form of silliness and self delusion. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Don’t miss it.

Ikabods, you need to spend a year in nature away from civilization.

Ambersun, we could all use a lifetime away from civilization, but what’s going to put food on the table and pay the rent?

Thou thinkest my words be harsh?

Nature, Nature, Nature… was made by who? Johnny boy? Laima?

This world was created by the God of Abraham, Isaac & Joseph.  And this God created the nature that you revere.  You revere the creation, not the creator. This has been obvious in all the discussions of Deivturiba in these posts.  And then there are those who want to identify Dievturiba and Latvianism as completely intertwined and inseperable. That’s where I take exception. Hence the topic of this forum.

Ikabds Ozols et al.,

“You people that think Dievturiba has any merit/ creduence are lost in the worst form of silliness and self delusion. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Don’t miss it. “

What do you know about Dievturibu ?  What do you think they practice ?  What are their creeds ?

Your comment to all the posts is the same, a boring unintelligent nothing.  You come more and more accross as nothing more than a proselyzing nut.

Visu labu,

Bruno - Ikabods does not seem to have the capacity to research anything but the bilble. Such being the case - I would caution others to avoid this “false prophet”. It seems that despite the many wonderful religious contained in the bilble - and the more modern religious options that Ikabods prefers to judge every one on the basis of his own choice. He does not seem to comprehend that faith is a private or personal matter with many people - and that many people are actually capable of examining another’s beliefs in a purely analytical manner, rather than simply deriding every discussion with a “Jesus” insert. Ikabods - there are many of us familiar with the “Bless me father for I have sinned...” - how is it that you are the truly righteous one. Are you ordained? Have you studied theology? We are fully aware that you read and write - but comprehension seems to be aspect of communication that you seem to have difficulty with. “blessed atre the peace makers...” - are you capable of that Ikabod - or only of judgement. “Judgement is mine...” - do you believe yourself to be God Ikabod?

Oh come on Bruno, the discussion about the merits of Deivturiba has already been laid out in these forums. Do you really need me to copy and paste from other discussions you were part of? If so, OK.

Sniks: “do you believe yourself to be God Ikabod? “

Sniks: “and the more modern religious options “

Sniks thinks I’m judgemental. Right?

Listen, Dievturiba is nonsense. Worship of nature. Worshiping the creation, not the creator.
As to sniks thought of a “false prophet”?  Dievturiba is your false prophet. It profits no one.

sniks says “ Ikabods does not seem to have the capacity to research anything but the bible”

From his limited ability to understand who I am, this might seem logical.. but.. I’ve studied many versions of current theology and old theology. That’s why I’ve come to my conclusions. I guess snicks theology is being challenged by my views. Seems he likes it better when his view fits his realty. Sure ... we would all like to custom make god, as long as it fits with our world view. Isn’t that so?

Ikabods - while my knowledge of Dievturiba is quite limited - I do know that it is not a worship of nature, but rather a belief that humans were meant to live in harmony with nature. Sort of a Eden ideal you could say - but once again, my knowledge is limited. I take it your studies of theology are not formal? As to judgemental - you demonstrate it every time you post.  Please refrain from excessive copy and paste - in that the only paste you need is “Jezus”. Once again - I will ask - aside from personal readings - have you formally studied theology, or are you just a sanctimonious, self-righteous, judgemental, egotist that believes that he is the only individual capable of understanding the complexities of religious worship? Jeez - you must be a genius? You don’t like Dievturiba - that is just fine - but if you cannot discuss anything without just simply saying there is only one way - then please go back and actually read some of the posts. I will repeat once again that many of those posts are not talking about worship - but actually are a study of the basics beliefs. It is a discussion forum. I do not believe that this forum is a church - and aside from your obvious inability to read other than your choice tidbits - you seem to be clueless in basic comprehension of anything that has - or will be written. May God have mercy on our souls!!!

That old theologian Loudon Wainwright III once wrote this song. Of course, it comes across immensely better when you hear him sing it. But it’s the thought that counts.

I Am the Way

I am the way
I am the way
I’m the way

Loudon Wainwright III

Thank-you Ojars - I enjoyed that. It is all a matter of perception at times isn’t it. I would certainly be happier in some of these threads if we could convince Ikabods that in many cases we are looking at religion, and not faith. I guess he cannot understand the difference.

Sometimes the nature of the faith, or religion, prevents understanding.  In some cases, organized religions discourage it. Galileo had his detractors. Salman Rushdie does as well. I encourage all to read to Umberto Eco’s ‘Baudolino’. It’s a fairly natural continuation of ‘Foucault’s Pendulum’. We are what we believe. But if you really want to have some cosmological fun, read ‘Small Gods’ by Terry Pratchett. Outstanding boook.

Ikabods Ozols - 14 March 2008 11:51 PM

You people that think Dievturiba has any merit/ creduence are lost in the worst form of silliness and self delusion. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Don’t miss it.
.......
This world was created by the God of Abraham, Isaac & Joseph.  And this God created the nature that you revere.  You revere the creation, not the creator. This has been obvious in all the discussions of Deivturiba (sic) in these posts.  And then there are those who want to identify Dievturiba and Latvianism as completely intertwined and inseperable. That’s where I take exception. Hence the topic of this forum.

The world was created by God; not just “the God of Abraham ...”

We do not revere the creation more or less than the creator.

Dievturiba and latvianism ARE intertwined.

Your understanding of how to invite other people to a discussion sucks.  End of discussion.

Let us try to be objective about religion.

FIRST, religion is necessary: every historic civilization, culture, society has had one.  There have been short interludes, such as Roman emperor worship, and Communism, but they have ended quickly, and religious faith has re-established itself.

SECOND, all religions are not equal.  The adherents of Judaism and of the Protestant variety of Christianity have done best, intellectually and materially.

THIRD, all religions are in a flux all the time, changing for better or for worse.  The best will endure and prosper.  The law of the survival of the fittest applies even to religions.  If Dievturiba is to prosper, it has to keep what is best in it, and add from other religions what is best in them.

FOURTH, science is not a panacea, and should not be in conflict with religion.  Einstein could not digest quantum mechanics.  Two hundred years ago, scientists refused to believe that stones could fall from the sky.  Kepler has proves mathematically that all celestial objects move in constant, undisturbable orbits and thus could not leave them to drop to earth.  Science involves just as much faith as religion, sometimes even more.

Sometimes it appears that the world was created by a committee. And they are still arguing about the details. Us humans are just caught in the middle.

While there are many interpretations of the concept of democracy, the most common one thrown at me is “one man, one vote”
:)
As everything seems to trace back to God as the beginning of all, would not His vote, as He is the originator of all, be the cause of all that follows?

A democratically elected result?

Mr. L. L.

Yes Mr LL - that truly does work. Is it not amazing at times that the very individuals that often advise that “it’s God’s will” - do not accept “God’s will” if it is not to their liking? I believe we all just find our comfort level on these things. Also - in keeping with the “one man - one vote” concept - while I will freely share my opinion on many subjects, when it comes to voting - I trust in a secret ballot. I may express how I generally felt on the issues - but do not inform anyone of how I actually voted. There have obviously been times where we choose what we consider to be the lesser of two evils, knowing full well that we truly do not an good option even in a so-called democratic society. Our religious options are often much the same type of election. Maybe we are comfortable for a time in a particular environment - but when we become disatisfied, it is very simple to find a new place of worship. Worship rites/masses vary greatly of course - so which do we choose. Once again - we frequently will choose a religous home that confirms with our personal zones of comfort as it pertains to worship. Thank god we do have options - and are able to elect what suits us best. Will some of be damned in the end - who knows.

Citi dievi -

Among other books that I have around me, there is a well-worn copy of King James “The Holy Bible”.  Just scanning through the yellowing pages I came across the statements that all Christians should know and honor. 

And, of course, they are in Exodus, chapter 20.

It is written, in part:
“I am the Lord, thy God, . . .  Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.”And continued:
“. . .for I . . . am a jealous God , visiting the iniquity . . .  upon . . them that hate me.”

Agreeing that God, Supreme Intelligence, or whatever name we ascribe to, created heaven and earth, and everything else, the previous statements make sense.

Apparently there are other gods created by God, and jumping around.  Even the New Testament mentions the altars to other gods – not denying them but relegating them to a lesser status than the God of Old Testament.  This should be sufficient to prove the possibility of “Dievturi” having a herd of their own deities.  The only problem I have with it, is that the Latvian creatures, I think, are not originals, but Aryan product that Indo-Germans yanked out of soft, warm pastures of India and dragged over Caucasian mountains and Eastern-Balts dropped some of them onto their rainy “dievzemite”.

Of course, there still is the question about “jealous God”.  He said – “before Me”, but as long as we keep our pets on a lesser level, there should be no danger. Also, in modern times the problem is easily solved - pay the TV preacher, do whatever you want, just make sure that before you die, yell – “Jeez” or similar corruption of Jesus Christ’s name. Is this not what the TV preachers tell you for your monies?

When I went to school in late thirties, the Latvian deities were introduced as Latvian historic culture studies, and nobody considered “Dievturesanu” as a separate religion. Our president Karlis Ulmanis introduced prayer in schools to start daily lessons; it was the good old Lord’s Prayer – Musu Tevs Debesis.

Never heard a complaint.

Come to think, if we could understand God’s ways, we would need no God :)

Mr. L. L.