The Devil has no objective existence, he is only an illusion that appears when we move away from God.  To understand this statement better, consider the following analogy.  Darkness, for example, has no objective existence, it is only the diminution or the absence of light.  Cold has no absolute existenece, it makes its appearance only when there is no source of heat present.  In the same way, evil intrudes in our lives only when goodness is removed.  When we help our neighbors, and keep away from evildoers, we generate goodness, and make this world a better place to live.

(Corollary:  government is by definition an evil, because there is no way we can keep away from it when it turns bad.  Consequently, the smaller government is, the less it can intrude in our lives, the better off we are.)

I guess it comes down to what must exist. If the Devil does not exist - then how can we prove that God does? It the Christ versus the anti-christ etc. If God created everything - then did the Devil corrupt it - or did God abandon it?

I don’t follow much of your opposites. Are not darkness and the abscence of light one and the same. Are not cold and the abscence of heat one and the same. I surely feel the cold in the winter - so that would mean that to me it exists simply because I can experience it. Maybe to others - it does not because they they live in an enviroment where they are never in a lack of warmth - but how many such people are there.

I can also experience the darkness - but there are those that have excellent night vision, yet may in many ways be hampered by the light. We are all different in so many ways at times.

Maybe it is too general a statement - but for anything that exists, there seems to be an opposite.

Opposites, like hot and cold, darkness and light are creations of our minds.  Beware of people playing language games, such as asking us to choose between two alternatives, when we can accept both, or refuse both.

It has been said that the devil’s greatest accomplishment in the modern world has been in convincing people that he does not exist. The ego of the the populace demands that intellectual discourse denies the existence of matters that fail to meet the scientific testing requirements. The philosophical arguments have been exhausted centuries ago.

Does that leave only faith as basis for belief? Thomas ,although rebuked, believed only when he saw. Others, even in this day, see and experience evil in person. Anecdotal ? Sure! But they see and experience.

Perhaps there are certain things that are creations of the mind only - commonally refered to as fantasies I believe - but light and dark are night amoung them, A tree’s production of nitrogen or oxygen is based on light and darkness. Hot and cold are also not merely creations of the mind. Seskis - if you are convinced that they are there is a simple test. Dressed only in a bathing suit - relax in 25 degree C for a period of 12 hours. Then try doing the same in (-40) degree teperatures. If you were to survive such an ordeal, you would most certainly not escape it unharmed. Drunk and sober are also two very different states of being - that are most certainly opposites - at least that is that is a normal manner in which to name the differnce. Or what is acvtually your point here - since it seems to make no sense.

Heat and cold:  what exists is the caloric contents of the environment.  We feel cold, if the caloric content of our environment is too law.  We feel hot if the caloric content of our environment is too high.  We feel comfortable if the caloric content is near optimum for our existence.  Therefore, we arbitrarily define “cold” as less than optimum caloric content, “hot” as excessive caloric content, while what really exists is the temperature that a thermometer indicates.  The same applies to good and evil.  Unfortunately, we have no counterpart to a thermometer in the moral world, no objective measure.  Consequently, confusion reigns.

Wow… so many words for a simple answer.
Does the devil exist ( Satan )?
Of course he does. The Bible tells me so.

Your resonses are not accepting first that God exists, if you belive that God exist, then you know that Satan exists as well.

Plainly the Bible acknowledges the existance of Lucifer. None of the responses posted thus far talks about anything meaningful, at least nothing that I can understand.. hot.. cold...? what?
. Accept Jesus as your Saviour, then all will be very clear!

I’ve seen some of you in these “faith"forums before and I have to say I don’t understand the need to “intelectualize” the subject the way you do. But after a recent, exhaustive discussion about Dievturiba, I find that latvians and me ( another latvian ) are not on the same page. Basically, none of you believe in Jesus, do you?

Simply put, if you don’t believe in Jesus, you are lost.
And will remain so.. for eternity.

Ikabods Ozols et al.,

“Your resonses are not accepting first that God exists, if you belive that God exist, then you know that Satan exists as well. “

The way you put it , exsitance of Satan is a precondition for God to exist.  When in fact it is the other way around.  I will post about it more next week.

I know that this week, the Holy Week, means a great deal to you. 

Happy Easter !

Ok...Bruno.. fire away. Can’t wait.

Ikabods Ozols - 14 March 2008 11:06 PM

But after a recent, exhaustive discussion about Dievturiba, I find that latvians and me ( another latvian ) are not on the same page. Basically, none of you believe in Jesus, do you?
Simply put, if you don’t believe in Jesus, you are lost.
And will remain so.. for eternity.

Don’t confuse belief (or not) in Jesus with belief (or not) in your delivery regarding your message regarding Jesus. And then there’s the whole eternal damnation shtick. Do you have personal knowledge of whether we will meet the vengeful wrathful God or the loving all-forgiving God when we reach the proverbial pearly gates?

As for the afore-mentioned topic, I don’t see that pagan closeness to nature is somehow diametrically opposed to Judeo-Christian faith.

Pardon my ignorance –

Did not Jesus Christ spent some time in desert – in nature – to meditate, before He started His tour of , what we would call, seminars?

Mr. L. L.

Ikabods Ozols et al.,

“Ok...Bruno.. fire away. Can’t wait. “.

It came up about the question of devil worship some time ago: To believe in the existence of the devil, one has to believe in the existence of God first. And if one believes in the existence of God, then why worship a “second banana” ? 

Your claim is the oposite: that God can not exist, if the devil does not exist.  Wrong. God does not need the devil to exist.

Beware the heretic false prophets, says the Bible

Visu labu,.

Our friend Ikabod does not believe that most of our Jewish bretheren are worthy of eternal life - in that they do not believe in Jezus. I guess it is Christians only that qualify vecrumba. Bruno - I most certainly agree on the false prophet - but which one is he is listening to I wonder? TV evangelism aside - what churches are preaching hate and contempt for others. Does not a true Christian pity the poor sinner. I guess poor IkaKnobs does not qualify as a good Christian - so I guess he will not see the light - or the Lord - or eternal life. Too bad - NOT.

It is interesting how some people build highly developed theories about what is easily visible in the context of religion’s question.

For Bible believers (Judeo-Christians) it is written in St. Matthew, 4, King James’ version, describing Devil, also known as Satan.

For Latvian Nature explorers, the Dainas and Tautas Teikas mention Velns and Velnins often enough.

I myself do not recall the devil’s definition in Koran.  But as Koran is based on Bible, this “Melnais Kungs” must be visible there too.

Acknowledging existence of a supernatural being like devil, angel, demon, or the like, does not automatically mean it is an object of worship.

Where is the argument?

Mr. L. L.

Bingo Mr L.L. - I do not believe any of us have been able to understand what Ikabods is arguing - he is simply trying to preach something that he does not seem to be able to grasp himself. People have tried to examine certain things - and he has chosen to believe that if you mention something you are worshipping it. He then proceeds to condemn us all based on beliefs that we have never professed to have. He has tried to intrude upon our own private spiritual beliefs - and then refuses to accept that with many individuals, their personal beliefs are exactly that - personal. Many years back I was indeed very interested in looking at gods of many ancient reigions (Greek & Egyptian to name just two). Was I ever a worshipper - or a believer - nope. Perhaps our friend Ikabod is simply lacking certain Christian virtues - or has simply not studied them yet. He just may have his head stuck where the sun don’t shine though.