Here’s to context.

“What do you mean by “dismiss”?. We all acknowledge that each of (insert one of the above) suffered atrocities.
Nothing dismissed there.”

You wrote:

“Remembering that on this day in 1944 Riga fell to the Russian Hordes and once again the Slav would rule as Germanic culture was pushed out....”

Then you wrote:

“Oh yeah and about Salaspils?… When cultures clash people get killed just as they did in pagrabas of the NKVD!”

How else to interpret it other than dismissal? German culture, according to you, is preferable. Therefore, anything Germany did is preferable to anything the Russian Hordes did in your version of the clash of cultures.

“In a sense that’s absolutely correct although it depends on what you define as a “clash”.

The clash is easy to define. This is a clash. Yesterday at work I clashed with a printer. The “culture clash” is where the mystery lies. In Toronto I had several culture clashes. The place is just too clean. I went to Chinatown and noticed that the Vietnamese are pushing out the Chinese. Is that a culture clash?
Define “culture clash” in the context of Salaspils? I’ve heard WWII and the Holocaust defined in my ways. This is the first where I’ve heard it defined as a “culture clash.”

“But there you go again saying that I’m “dismissing"."

And here I go again.

“To use you own words to me , “in your context"(meaning my context), actually is a broad generalization on YOUR part and an assumption of what I would call a “clash” in any given different context. Specifically in the context of Salaspils etc., to me a “clash” is equal to an armed confrontation.”

Well there you go. I guess we could all use a Thesaurus from time to time. Clash is equal to armed confrontation. Why stop there? I can find other synonyms if you really want to stretch the envelope.

Armed confrontation is equal to clash is equal to:

affray, argument, battle, brawl, break, broil, brush, bump, collision, concussion, conflict, confrontation, crash, discord, discordance, disharmony, dispute, donnybrook*, embroilment, encounter, engagement, fracas, fray, impact, jam, jar, jolt, jump, melee, misunderstanding, mix up, opposition, rift, riot, row, rumpus, run-in, rupture, scrap, scrimmage, set-to, shock, showdown, skirmish, smash, wallop

Is culture wallop the one you were going for? Maybe rumpus?

“You are indeed correct that depending on one’s definition of “clash” in its’ given context, a “clash” can lead to anything from an uncomfortable look given on the street, to a Jewish boy leaving Soviet Latvia for the West in the early 1970s, to atrocities committed with arms.”

Did you have a particular Jewish boy in mind? Or was that a random choice? And would you say that all three examples above are equal in any given context? I am reasonably uncomfortable when someone gives me a look on the street. It mmight lead to a contextual clash.

Andrejs

Andrejs (the voice of reason) speaks and asks a question…
In Toronto I
>had several culture clashes. The place
>is just too clean. I went to Chinatown
>and noticed that the Vietnamese are
>pushing out the Chinese. Is that a
>culture clash?

I wouldn’t call that a “clash”. Perhaps a “confrontation” or “meeting” of two cultures would be a more appropriate word.
Now should the Vietnamese ,(great food BTW in Hue in Cental Vietnam I had a great meal there once and dirt cheap! :) ) and Chinese start throwing rocks, tables, chairs,chinese apples, library books, bullets, bombs, THEN it’s a “clash”.  :( Get it? But that’s merely my definition. Everyone has their own. If YOU choose to define it as a “clash”, then you are free to do so…

Andrejs asks for a clarification…
>Define “culture clash” in the
>context of Salaspils? I’ve heard WWII
>and the Holocaust defined in my ways.
>This is the first where I’ve heard it
>defined as a “culture clash.”

Essentially the most EXTREME form of racism and ethnocentricity available, Nazis believed that everyone that was different would either be capable of assimilation, (Germans, Scandinavians who would obey orders without questioning them), or be quite simply killed, (all of the rest of us). Basically you are with or us or we will kill you. Thus Nazi “clashing” their view of Germanic culture versus the world. A “clash” if ever there was one!
For Latvia, it was having two big giants hammering away at each other while standing on top of her.
Salaspils was death for all free thinkers. As were the KGB killing pens. But we all knew that already.... 

>Andrejs responds…
> Clash
>is equal to armed confrontation. Why
>stop there? I can find other synonyms if
>you really want to stretch the
>envelope.
>
>Armed confrontation is equal to clash is
>equal to:
>
>affray, argument, battle, brawl, break,
>broil, brush, bump, collision,
>concussion, conflict, confrontation,
>crash, discord, discordance, disharmony,
>dispute, donnybrook*, embroilment,
>encounter, engagement, fracas, fray,
>impact, jam, jar, jolt, jump, melee,
>misunderstanding, mix up, opposition,
>rift, riot, row, rumpus, run-in,
>rupture, scrap, scrimmage, set-to,
>shock, showdown, skirmish, smash, wallop
>
>
>Is culture wallop the one you were going
>for? Maybe rumpus?

Take your pick Andrejs, you can use which ever one you want to...actually “donnybrook” sounds interesting :) ....don’t think I ever heard that one before…
rumpus is cute sounding…
>

>
>Did you have a particular Jewish boy in
>mind? Or was that a random choice? And
>would you say that all three examples
>above are equal in any given context? I
>am reasonably uncomfortable when someone
>gives me a look on the street. It mmight
>lead to a contextual clash.
>
>Andrejs

Yes I had exactly you in mind to demonstrate my point of the many different scenarios quite UNequal in importance that different individuals with different definitions of a “clash” could call culture “clashes”. Once again ,a person could define leaving the Soviet Union to live in the West in the early 1970s as a culture “clash” if they wanted to. A group if individuals “clashing” with the government of their country and making a serious decision with all sorts of consequences, ( getting fired, snubbed by neighbors, etc). Now I quite obviously would NOT call that a clash because there is no violence taking place. But that doesn’t mean that someone else has to use my definition of “clash”, however. Everyone sees things in their own way and is free to do so.
Likewise racial tension with mean looks may be felt from time to time in inner cities due to misunderstandings between cultures that don’t communicate as much as they should. Would I call that a “clash”. No. But if it leads to violence, then, yes. But that doesn’t mean that someone else with a different meaning of “clash” isn’t allowed to call a dirty look from someone from another culture a “clash"…
And of course all three examples I gave are NOT
>equal in any given context. Come on are you kidding me?… ;)
>
>
>

>Yes I had exactly you in mind to
>demonstrate my point of the many
>different scenarios quite UNequal in
>importance that different individuals
>with different definitions of a
>"clash" could call culture
>"clashes". Once again ,a
>person could define leaving the Soviet
>Union to live in the West in the early
>1970s as a culture “clash” if
>they wanted to. A group if individuals
>"clashing" with the government
>of their country and making a serious
>decision with all sorts of consequences,
>( getting fired, snubbed by neighbors,
>etc). Now I quite obviously would NOT
>call that a clash because there is no
>violence taking place. But that doesn’t
>mean that someone else has to use my
>definition of “clash”,
>however. Everyone sees things in their
>own way and is free to do so.
>Likewise racial tension with mean looks
>may be felt from time to time in inner
>cities due to misunderstandings between
>cultures that don’t communicate as much
>as they should. Would I call that a
>"clash". No. But if it leads
>to violence, then, yes. But that doesn’t
>mean that someone else with a different
>meaning of “clash” isn’t
>allowed to call a dirty look from
>someone from another culture a
>"clash"…
>And of course all three examples I gave
>are NOT
>>equal in any given context. Come on
>are you kidding me?… ;)

Now that we are done with defining clash we finally get to the crux of the matter. What is culture? What is it about me that you find Jewish other than my father? At the time of my leaving Latvia I had no identity other than Latvian. Yet you see me as a Jewish boy. The Latvian half of me wasn’t being left behind. :)
No problem. I am proud of my heritage and have never hidden it. Don’t mind being LOL’s token Jew now that Alana seems to have deserted us. I just find it interesting that you assign to me a particular culture once a clash is under way. And there’s the rub, bub. If German culture is preferable to Latvia and you’ve assigned to me a culture which is not preferable to the Germans then what implication can possibly be drawn?

Andrejs, a reasonable Jewish boy

“Some Letts remark that unlike the Russians, the Germans never tried to assimilate us. That’s hardly a consequence of the Germans being warm and fuzzy—it’s primarily because the Germans wanted to prevent our assimilation in order to maintain a slave class. Plans for assimilation did flower once the Germans felt sufficiently threatened by russification in the 1880s—and considerable assimilation was taking place prior to the First Awakening (whose leaders mostly saw the Slavophiles as allies, at first).”

The baltic germans seriously promulgated the idea that there a no educated letts and that an educated lett is a german.

Visu labu,

Andrejs (the voice of reason) asks a good question…

What is it
>about me that you find Jewish other than
>my father? At the time of my leaving
>Latvia I had no identity other than
>Latvian. Yet you see me as a Jewish boy.
>The Latvian half of me wasn’t being left
>behind. :)

Answer: Your spankling Israeli passport.
The Law of Return, right?
More power to you!
You have to understand that in “NY Speak” ,(my neck of the woods), Israeli citizens in NY are referred to (by non Israeli Jews I grew up with) as the “Super-Jews” that can kill an arab terrorist at ten paces in three seconds flat :)

Andrejs then raises an interesting dilemma....

>And there’s the rub, bub. If German
>culture is preferable to Latvia and
>you’ve assigned to me a culture which is
>not preferable to the Germans then what
>implication can possibly be drawn?
>
>Andrejs, a reasonable Jewish boy

Answer:That your parents made the right decision and it’s good you got out of that place when you did! :)
>

>Andrejs (the voice of reason) asks a
>good question…

And the Doc answers not so good.

>Answer: Your spankling Israeli
>passport.

Lots of non-Jews (Christians, Druze, Arabs, Armenians, even the occassional Latvian--my Mom for one) have Israeli pasports.
Try again.

>The Law of Return, right?

I have the right to Return, but not to be buried in a Jewish cemetary.

>More power to you!

Thanks. Not planning to be buried.

>You have to understand that in “NY
>Speak” ,(my neck of the woods),
>Israeli citizens in NY are referred to
>(by non Israeli Jews I grew up with) as
>the “Super-Jews” that can kill
>an arab terrorist at ten paces in three
>seconds flat :)

That’s very impressive. In my neck of the woods Jews and Israeli Jews refer to me as a Latvian. In three seconds.

>Answer:That your parents made the right
>decision and it’s good you got out of
>that place when you did! :)

Why? German culture was in no way threatening either of my parents in the early 1970s.

Andrejs, a nice Jewish boy

Andrejs (Super Jew) points out…

>
>Lots of non-Jews (Christians, Druze,
>Arabs, Armenians, even the occassional
>Latvian--my Mom for one) have Israeli
>pasports.

And they all permit the Jewish Star of David to grace the cover of their spankling passports!!??
That’s pretty understanding of them!

Andrejs continues…
>I have the right to Return, but not to
>be buried in a Jewish cemetary.

Something tells me you never fulfilled your required Israeli military service either ;)
Your country (Israel) needs you now more than ever. Get on that El-Al plane immediately! What are you waiting for? Maybe they’ll change their mind about the cemetery… :)
>
>

Andrejs continues…
Jews and Israeli Jews refer to
>me as a Latvian. In three seconds.

Dr Janums replies...That’s O.K. We’ve got a beautiful Latvian cemetery up in the Katskills but you’ll have to share it with Latvians that fought in the 15 Division of the Waffen SS. I’m sure they would be glad to have you. :)

>Andrejs (Super Jew) points out…

Wow. Thank you. I’ve been called many things in my life. First time Super. By the way, the Supers were neighbors in Ludza. Nice people. I think they married some distant cousins of mine, but I remain Makwitz.

>And they all permit the Jewish Star of
>David to grace the cover of their
>spankling passports!!??
>That’s pretty understanding of them!

Yes it is.

>Something tells me you never fulfilled
>your required Israeli military service
>either ;)

Nope. Didn’t need to. They don’t conscript minors. Had I stayed in Israel I gladly would have.

>Your country (Israel) needs you now more
>than ever. Get on that El-Al plane
>immediately!

American is cheaper.

>What are you waiting for?
>Maybe they’ll change their mind about
>the cemetery… :)

Most would. The Rabbis not so much. Maybe you could mention to them my Super status? I am sure it will make a difference.

> Dr Janums replies...That’s O.K. We’ve
>got a beautiful Latvian cemetery up in
>the Katskills but you’ll have to share
>it with Latvians that fought in the 15
>Division of the Waffen SS. I’m sure they
>would be glad to have you. :)

Not ready yet, but thanks for the offer. Just don’t mention my Super status. Wouldn’t want anyone to turn in their graves.

Andrejs, Super Jew

Andrejs (no longer such a Super Jew),

Sorry, New York does not award “Super Jew” status to adults holding Israeli citizenship that have never fullfilled the Israeli requirement of military service.
How do you think Super Jews learn to kill an Arab terrorist at ten paces in three seconds flat?  ;)

>Andrejs (no longer such a Super Jew),

Oh, well. It is often said greatness is not recognized in ones lifetime. Maybe after my burial. Something to look forward to.

>Sorry, New York does not award
>"Super Jew” status to adults
>holding Israeli citizenship that have
>never fullfilled the Israeli requirement
>of military service.

I thought it was the passport with the star of David on it which confers that status? I have the passport.

>How do you think Super Jews learn to
>kill an Arab terrorist at ten paces in
>three seconds flat?  ;)

I think they learn very carefully. They probably also learn to target those who claim that Salaspils was a clash of cultures. :)

Andrejs, not so Super Jew

>>Andrejs (no longer such a Super
>Jew),
>
>Oh, well. It is often said greatness is
>not recognized in ones lifetime. Maybe
>after my burial. Something to look
>forward to.
>
>>Sorry, New York does not award
>>"Super Jew” status to
>adults
>>holding Israeli citizenship that
>have
>>never fullfilled the Israeli
>requirement
>>of military service.
>
>I thought it was the passport with the
>star of David on it which confers that
>status? I have the passport.
>
>>How do you think Super Jews learn
>to
>>kill an Arab terrorist at ten paces
>in
>>three seconds flat?  ;)
>
>I think they learn very carefully. They
>probably also learn to target those who
>claim that Salaspils was a clash of
>cultures. :)
>
>Andrejs, not so Super Jew
>
/////////////////////////////////////

Any jewish jungster should join
IDF. Except for those severly handicapped.
Actually, maybe not. There was a guy with one eye.
It was a snipers bullet, tho......

pete

>Any jewish jungster should join
>IDF. Except for those severly
>handicapped.
>Actually, maybe not. There was a guy
>with one eye.
>It was a snipers bullet, tho......

Wow, Pete. I didn’t know you knew my dad. :)
He lost an eye to a sniper’s bullet. He was culture clashing with the Germans. Of course by the time he got to the IDF he was no longer a youngster, so alas he doesn’t get Super Jew status either.

Andrejs, in the Land of the Blind

Andrejs discloses a little about his Dad…

>Wow, Pete. I didn’t know you knew my
>dad. :)
>He lost an eye to a sniper’s bullet. He
>was culture clashing with the Germans.
>Of course by the time he got to the IDF
>he was no longer a youngster,

But then Andrejs makes a false assumption....

so alas he
>doesn’t get Super Jew status either.
>
>Andrejs, in the Land of the Blind

Not at all. New York non-Israeli Jewry gives “Super Jew” status to any Jew that lived through the Second World War in Europe.
:(

>
>Our rabid Russophobes have a slight
>problem, methinks—even they must
>realize that one of the things Latvians
>admire about the Germans is their
>efficiency. Part of the reason so many
>cultures and languages
>havesurvived in Russia, besides
>the nature of the empire prior to the
>Russophiles’ ascent and the Soviet
>nationalities policy, is traditional
>Russian inefficiency.
>

Now this, I’ll always remember...the Latvian admiration of Germans for their efficiency; culture, languages surviving in Russia because of ‘traditional Russian inefficiency’--very good!  And how very apt!!

Irena

As an aside, when the Russians started to russify the Poles at the end of the 19th century, the Poles tried to polonize Lithuanians living in Polish controlled regions. (Stalšāns, “Baltu tautu likteņi slāvu apdzīvotos apgabalos.” (Medium-sized fish eating small fish before being eaten by big fish!!!).

Lithuanians were thankful to the Germans for printing books in Lithuanian, and giving asylum to Lithuanian patriots during those desperate days.