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Interminable “Soviet BS”
 
ambersun
Posted: 30 June 2012 11:18 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Vinde wrote:

” I agree 100% [with Peteris Cedrins] - there needs to be scholarly research and new “authoritative” books. Unfortunately, these will require backing up everything (perhaps in foot or endnotes). Because, at this point, one must prove that they are telling the true story.

They must also prove that they have no agenda per se. They are historians - period.”

Vēsturnieki kritizē «Nākotnes melnrakstus»
27.06.2012 Viesturs Sprūde
 

“Tā ir tāda pret Latviju vērstās PSRS politikas apoloģētika, kādu grūti atrast pat liberālu mūsdienu Krievijas vēsturnieku darbos,” vakar “Nākotnes melnrakstu” sērijas grāmatu izvērtēšanas diskusijas laikā izsaucās vēstures profesors Ilgvars Butulis. Brīžiem gan šķita, ka vēsturnieku publika diskusijā izturas pārāk korekti un iecietīgi.


Pasākumam Latvijas Universitātes Vēstures un filozofijas fakultātē augsni bija sagatavojis nesen iznākušais Jāņa Urbanoviča, Igora Jurgena un Jura Paidera kopdarbs “Nākotnes melnraksti: Latvija 1941. – 1947.”, kas turpināja šo pašu autoru iesākto apcerējumu par Latvijas vēstures norisēm 1934. – 1941. gadā. Izteikties par grāmatām bija nolēmuši paši vēsturnieki, kaut gan agrāk neoficiāli izskanēja, ka komentēt tāda veida darbus tie uzskata zem sava goda. Auditorijā absolūtā vairākumā tiešām bija diplomēto vēsturnieku un viņu piekritēju publika, kamēr “Nākotnes melnrakstu” nometni pārstāvēja tikai Juris Paiders un vēl grāmatas izdevēja – “Baltijas foruma” – direktors Aleksandrs Vasiļjevs.

Paiders savu uzstāšanos sāka ar atziņu, ka neviens no autoriem nav vēsturnieks un ka grāmatas mērķis nekādā gadījumā neesot bijis dublēt vai aizstāt vēsturnieku darbus. Arī vēsturnieki atzina, ka nevēsturniekiem ir tiesības rakstīt par vēsturi, tomēr, citējot profesori Dainu Bleieri, “arī populārā literatūrā jāpieturas pie zināmiem akadēmiskiem standartiem”, jo “šī grāmata, kā jebkurš darbs, veido sabiedrības vēstures apziņu”. Vēsturnieku publikai jautājumu bija daudz, tajā skaitā par ļoti diskutablajām hipotēzēm, kas nav balstītas nekādos faktos, par padomju laika “uzpūstās” kara upuru statistikas atkārtotu laišanu apritē, par Paidera proponēto ideju, ka Latvija jau kopš 1939. gada oktobra it kā pēc pušu vienošanās sākta pielāgot PSRS juridiskajai sistēmai. Šādu jautājumu bija gūzma, tomēr diskusija īsti neizvērsās, jo izrādījās, ka Jurim Paideram un vēsturnieku auditorijai par to ir ļoti atšķirīga izpratne. Grāmatas autors vienkārši nebija gatavs runāt argumentēti, šķiet, uzskatot, ka viņa daļā ir tikai izvirzīt “oriģinālas” teorijas, nevis tās izskaidrot un aizstāvēt ar faktiem. Ģeogrāfijas zinātņu doktors brīžiem atgādināja studentu eksāmenā, kurš savu nezināšanu slēpj aiz vispārējām frāzēm, kā mēdz sacīt, “peld”.

Paiders turējās pie stila neatbildēt uz konkrētiem jautājumiem, sāka runāt par pavisam citām lietām un bieži atbildēja tikai tad, kad jautātājs uzstāja. Kad Daina Bleiere aizrādīja uz konceptuālām pretrunām, ka pirmais “Nākotnes melnrakstu” sējums runā pretim otrajam, autors to izskaidroja ar vārdiem: “Mēs jau neesam nekādi dogmatiķi, kas ieņēmuši prātā vienu domu un no tās neatkāpjas.”

“Ja šī ir grāmatas apspriešana, tad man kā vēsturniekam ir grūti kaut ko apspriest, ja grāmata pamatā sastāv no specifiski atlasītiem vēstures avotiem un preses materiāliem, fotogrāfijām ar tendencioziem parakstiem,” savus nostāju neslēpa vēsturnieks Uldis Neiburgs.

Profesors Ilgvars Butulis, vairāk runājot par pirmo grāmatu, norādīja, ka viņam nav pieņemama grāmatas politiskā filozofija. Piemēram, tendence “degradēt Latviju kā valsti”, runājot par 1939. un 1940. gada situāciju un iespējām. Tāpat neizpratni raisa terminoloģijas izvēle un lietošana. “Kad mēs ar krievu kolēģiem diskutējām, vai bija okupācija vai aneksija, lietas būtība jau ir viena un tā pati, bet, ja tā laika notas un procesus autori nosauc par “integrāciju”! Ja jau staļiniskās PSRS politika Austrumeiropā ir “integrācija”, tad varbūt arī Hitlera politika bija “integrācija”? Tā ir nepamatota jēdzienu pārbīde,” aizrādīja profesors. Ne viņam, ne citiem klātesošajiem nebija pieņemama “Nākotnes melnrakstu” pozīcija visu, kas notika pēc 1940. gada jūnija, attēlot kā Latvijas “integrāciju” PSRS, kā it kā normālu procesu, kam bijušas vien “dažas labās un sliktās un dažas nepatīkamas puses”.

Pasākuma noslēgumā “Baltijas foruma” vadītājs Vasiļjevs atklāja, ka jau krājoties materiāli jaunai grāmatai, varbūt pat divām trim. Tajās būšot runa par 1949. gada, 50. gadu un vēl vēlākiem notikumiem Latvijā. Paiders nedaudz apjuka un tikai pēc jautājuma atkārtošanas, jau izrunājies par pavisam ko citu, atbildēja uz auditorijas vaicājumu, kā jaunajā grāmatā tiks apzīmēti pēckara notikumi: vai tur būs runa par nacionālās pretestības kustību vai “bandītisma likvidēšanu”? Runātājs ļāva noprast, ka tajā būšot runa par abiem.

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aivars t
Posted: 30 June 2012 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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If you would like to read another source of history,I strongly suggest the book
“Walking Since Daybreak"by proffessor Modris Eksteins.
It’s quite a read.

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aivars t
Posted: 30 June 2012 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Excuse the spelling,I am not a Professor.Sorry.

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Irena
Posted: 01 July 2012 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Sveiks Avair!

I strongly agree with you about Modris Ekstein’s book.  I read it on the recommendation of Andrejs K and was quite impressed.  I should really re-read that book again, but one of the things that stayed with me, after all these years, is just how powerful and destructive a force revenge can be; the constant never ending of bloodletting which just keeps on perpetuating itself, begetting the same.

And what resonates is some of what I heard my parents talking about—the utter confusion, chaos of those times not knowing where to go, run, hide…everything coming at you at once from all directions…I can’t even begin to imagine what that was all like!

Irena

[ Edited: 01 July 2012 04:44 AM by Irena]
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ambersun
Posted: 01 July 2012 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Unfortunately, M. Eksteins’ book is not scholarly history but fiction and M. Eksteins’ personal fabrication that needs to be critiqued for all of its gross factual errors and other fictional assertions that wrongly malign Latvians.  Prof. Ezergailis has challenged this work and directly questioned M. Eksteins who appears to be unable to defend his work to any real historian.  I think Latvians need to be very careful when they choose to read something by a Latvian that is available in English and unfortunately also gets popularized beyond Latvians.  Perhaps Prof Ezergailis will comment on this or I will look for a solid review.  This fictional work needs to be discarded or at least not mistaken for a real work of history that would meet minimum academic standards for real history.  Eksteins doesn’t even defend this as his true family story.  It’s unfortunate that there does not exist a Latvian Think Tank of history and other academics who would monitor publications that are about or mention Latvia and Latvians and offer ratings and even critiques.  How can anyone who just grabs a current history publication or hot-seller know what is legitimate Latvian history (if even mentioned, as rarely is - even when it should be covered in depth but is not, as in BLOODLANDS) or at least has some factual or academic credibility with the treatment or neglect of anything Latvian.

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ambersun
Posted: 01 July 2012 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Why Latvians need to read THE CASE FOR LATVIA to understand the interminable junk “history” written about them:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yXANj6Y_7goC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=The+case+for+Latvia+Modris+Eksteins&source=bl&ots=1hohv9JpAh&sig=b9oSYtAASoNni95Rr3MknHrqZas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HHPwT_PFNcL30gHI8bD7Ag&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f;=false

Also, page 85: “Modris Eksteins [has] recently resurrected the old myth that the Latvians murdered Czar Nicholas II…Historians, however, have long ago shown that on the published list of the execution squad no “Latvian” name is to be found, but instead one Hungarian - Imre Nagy.  In fact, among those that were killed with the Czar and his family was one Latvian - the servant Aloizs Lauris Trūps.”

Also, Professor Aivars Stranga, page 114, and M. Eksteins’ fabricated history and ensuing harm, page 115.

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aivars t
Posted: 01 July 2012 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Labdien Ambersun,

Do we really know the whole truth about what went on in Latvija? Eksteins credits Viktors
Arajs with killing a minimum of 26,000 Latvian Jews,and Herberts Cukurs was known
as the “butcher of Riga"for a reason.
Do you know an approximate no.?(above zero) I don’t.There just seems to be too much
smoke,not to have a small fire.

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peter B
Posted: 01 July 2012 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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The only problem with true personal history is that the stories seem to get better when there is no one else of the same age left to refute what is being said.  Personal rocolections are not usually accurate nor trustworthy (even if they are Latvians) - they are almost always clouded by after thoughts. These after thoughts were best demonstarted by WWII German concentration camp survivors giving first hand accounts of things that they could not possibly have witmessed. Maybe Ambersun was trained by one of these survivors, in that she seems to continue along the same path and with the same unflinching outlook as always.”

Who said this?

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ambersun
Posted: 01 July 2012 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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aivars t wrote:
“Do we really know the whole truth about what went on in Latvija?” 

aivars t,
“The whole truth” about anything obviously can never be known, will never be known.  Lots “went on in Latvija” that we know lots about - with lots of solid reseach and substantiating facts - if only we would read some credible history by historians the calibre of Stranga, Feldmanis, Ezergailis, Strouds, Nollendorfs to name just a few of today’s better known or recently mentioned.  If a Latvian had already read Germanis, he or she would have gotten a positive sense of the character and strength of Latvians and not be easily misled when an Eksteins comes along and writes a novel lacking historical truth.  If one had read Rislakki, one would have learned enough facts from historians (and about Eksteins missing facts) for a strong Latvian self-defense against ignorance, misinformation, and disinformation about Latvians. There is indeed much that is known through the scholarship and research of legitimate historians who are committed to upholding high academic standards and value intellectual honesty in the work that they produce or accept.

aivars,
I think you owe it to yourself to require more than “smoke” as the evidence against you as a “Latvian.”  I would hope that you would want some standard of truth and honesty for yourself as a Latvian as well for other Latvians.  When someone writes dishonetly or asserts factually unsubstantiated claims/slanders about collective “Latvians,” remember that they are writing about you also.  Should I give you the benefit of the doubt that Eksteins was not writing about you and your family with his false facts?  I don’t know how much gagging “smoke” you are willing to breathe before you choke, but maybe you would do well to take a closer look at your so-called “fires.”  They just may have been set on purpose by those not even your equal as a Latvian or mere small embers that have been stoked by imported gasoline.  Also, I expect that you would prefer real charges brought against you and a fair trial before you are murdered by a hit squad of assassins.  Then again, maybe the standard of “suspicious smoke” is enough for you.

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Irena
Posted: 01 July 2012 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Speaking of ‘interminable BS’, ‘unsubstantiated claims’, I don’t see any of your claims substantiated in YOUR CASE against Eksteins, Ambersun.  You quote some specific pages, 85, 114, 115 which are not shown in the link you provided (it reads that page 85 is not shown in this preview, neither is 114 or 115).  I’d say that’s pretty shoddy evidence.  I’m not necessarily arguing or trying to prove that everything Eksteins writes is accurate, but I would expect someone arguing a case against him to be able to back up their statements; especially someone who purports being an expert in history, a student of law.

Irena

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KasParTo
Posted: 01 July 2012 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Eksteins expressed my trimda days perfetcly and helped me understand the why. I sent him a thank you letter and gave the book to my six brothers and sisters. Kaspars

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andrejs komendantovs
Posted: 01 July 2012 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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I have to re-read “Walking Since Daybreak.”  It fleshed out a lot missing details around my parents’ road to DP-dom, which absolutely mirrored the stories of Eksteins.  I’m sure I will gain an even greater appreciation of this book, given all the other sources I’ve come across in recent years.

ak

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aivars t
Posted: 02 July 2012 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Ambersun,

Here is my take on your chastising post no.8.How about good old cliche"My country,right or wrong”,or it never took place.
I will put my “Latvianess"against anyone,claiming to be one,but not so extreme,that You,I,or our
country is pure white.
When I quoted something from Modris(non-history to you)book,did that make me less of a Latvian?
I don’t think so.

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ambersun
Posted: 02 July 2012 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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aivars t,
Modris Eksteins has written fabricated history about Latvians with little regard for the real facts that are not in dispute.  His “Walking…” has been misused as “history.”  If you don’t care or don’t want to read the specific criticisms from other sources such as can easily be found in Rislakki, that’s your choice.  There’s vast territory within which Latvians can argue about history but some things are verifiable and documented facts.  “My country” certainly can be “wrong” but with the “right” facts, certainly should not be “wrong” with the acceptance of “wrong” facts and open fabrication.  You may want to look at Ezergailis’ website and his struggle with German historians who are blowing thick smoke to try and cover their “German Holocaust.”

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vecrumba
Posted: 02 July 2012 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Regarding the Holocaust, there are accounts of small German commando units eradicating every Jew in the countryside (per unofficial correspondence to Berlin saying it would look bad for the Germans if this were discovered to be the truth) whereas official German reports credit bloodthirsty Lithuanians.

When everyone is dead, all you have left is who said what. The Germans “saving” Jews from the bloodthirsty Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians is a common myth all too often repeated. The Germanless Holocaust is alive and well and a particular darling of certain segments of the German press.

Every butcher needs somebody (allegedly) worse to point to, to assuage their guilt.

Sorry, got up on the grumpy side of the bed this morning.
Peters

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Ar cieņu - Pēters Jānis Vecrumba
http://www.latvians.com
http://www.cfbh.org, http://www.facebook.com/CenterforBalticHeritage

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marisr
Posted: 03 July 2012 06:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Maybe ambersun got something right (at least partially) re “Walking Till Daybreak”

extract:

“Jānis Krēsliņš sr. analyzes historian Modris Ekšteins’ acclaimed Walking Since Daybreak: a Story of Eastern Europe, World War II, and the Heart of Our Century. Ekšteins traces the story of his family during the tragic history of Latvia and Europe in the twentieth century. Krēsliņš finds the book a well-written and welcome addition to the scant historical material on the fate of Latvians driven to exile during World War II. However, Krēsliņš finds factual errors and is critical of Ekšteins’ reliance on tainted sources.

from:

http://zagarins.net/jg/jg219/JG219_In_This_Issue.htm

Even in my book I have made a few question marks to the some paragraphs / items.
However, I did enjoy the read; and intend to read it again ( but when?)

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