Keep up the good work, ambersun. I’m warming up my pen for November 1 as a protest against people like you.

Aleks,
Can’t say I’m surprised by your immature threats and the many others already coming from many Russians.  This is hardly the first time.  Keep it up and show your true self.  I can hardly wait to move to Latvia now and be in Latvia to watch you sign all your petitions.  Pay me twice what you pay the Russian pensioners and I’ll even sign as “Tatiana.”  I know, you would not be forced to do this petition stuff if SC could be making all those changes on behalf of Moscow and Russian occupants from the parliament. 

So….which SC politician are you going to tell us about first?  Who is your favorite and would have represented “the tauta” most to your liking?

“Immature threats”? Coming from a person who at one point said, “I have nothing good to say about Russian culture,” this comes to you as an “immature threat”? My potential signing of the petition has nothing to do with SC not being in the government. I didn’t vote for them as I explained earlier. Heck, I’ve said many times I am against Russian becoming the second official language. But certain political discourse, which is the embodiment of you, ambersun, forces me to consider this possibility as a protest. I’m not going to go to some stupid demonstration about Harmony Center not being in the government because that’s not what’s important. What is important in the political sense is that all political groups elected by citizens of Latvia regardless of their ethnicity should be at least be considered as legitimate political players. No matter how crazy they may be. Even your question about SC members assumes that they—and their voters—are not part of the “tauta” and against that kind of discrimination I would sign my name.

PS I’d take Pimenov for my liking. The man worked with the education ministry during the education reform in Russian schools. He is widely respected by many parties. Do you even know anything about any of these people? Dolgopolov was actually in the Latvijas Tautas Fronte. (Not that it matters, of course)...

PPS As I said earlier, the difference is in the attitude toward craziness. Wacko ideas of VL are tolerated, they are even allowed to dissent in a draft coalition agreement. Harmony must prove its legitimacy to someone. The difference is VL ir saveije; SC ir svesie. The same goes for their electorate. Ergo, mostly Russian-speakers who are citizens of Latvia are… “svesie.” And that’s my problem.

Aleks,

“I have nothing good to say about Russian culture.”
 
You need to take your lie back.  It’s just a stupid of you to make up a quote that makes no sense.  I can’t deal with you anymore.  You are not quoting me but doing the occupant thing to cause ethnic divisions.  You clearly are on a rampage. 

If you want to defend occupant Russians in Latvia, defend them on their own terms and not by pretending that a rejection of their occupant behavior is a rejection of “Russian culture” or a rejection of all Russians.  You and they would do well to take a look at real “Russian culture” and the brave and inspiring behavior of those Russians in Russia really having to struggle against the denial of democratic rights - in Russia.  Russians in Russia get murdered by their Putin-controlled government because they try to exercise their democratic free speech rights and you think a party like SC that forms an alliance with Putin and Moscow has a place in the Latvian Saeima?  Which Russians is SC really supporting?  Maybe you should be signing a petition that asks SC to clean house from its “extremists”  and to distance itself from affiliation with Putin’s party in Moscow.  Now that would be mature behavior.

You need to take your lie back

On this forum, where the Russians have not acknowledged the occupation and their responsibility, is not the best time for me to reflect on the cultural contributions of Russians.

—ambersun on October 24, 2009.

Who were those Russians on this forum who did not acknowledge the occupation?

And once again, in your post you confirm your tribalism where there are no places for Russians in your tribe. They, you are saying, should care about what’s happening in Russia because they are Russians. They have no place in Latvia. Your reaction to the article by Kostenecka, where she recognizes herself as a Russian only confirms that, even though the woman was there on the barricades and supported Latvia’s independence she has no place in your tribe. To you, being a Russian is synonymous being “an occupier” and therefore no place in the Latvian political process. And that is what I oppose.

As far as I’m concerned, Harmony compromised on many things, even to the detriment to their own voters… Perhaps it was a political game and a gamble, but it just revealed how certain circles in Latvian politics do not recognize them (and their voters) as legitimate. Ushakov said LSP wasn’t going to be part of it. I don’t see the need to start launching a petition about something that wouldn’t make a squat a difference if politicians (and you) turn tribal.

If I’m wrong, I’m looking forward to lists of Russians in Latvia who, according to you, are not occupiers.

Aleks,
We spent a virtual eternity on LOL wasting time about the fact of the occupation.  Years in Latvia have been wasted with occupant Russians refusing to acknowledge their or their ancestors occupation of Latvia.  There are plenty of ethnic Russians and others who were living in Latvia, were Latvia’s citizens, who were also subjected to the occupations and would never think to waste time like occupant Russians denying that their was occupation.  I know some of them.  Some even were DPs and id’d as “Latvians” when asked “nationality” upon entry to the U.S.  Your Old Believers were persecuted not by Latvians but by other Russians and yet you become tribal in flocking to May 9 and voting SC.  It is you who can’t sort the Russians appropriately but are tribal in thinking that only SC represents “Russians.”  Poor Into thinks occupant Russians can speak for other minorities in Latvia otherwise there simply is no minority representation is Latvia.  It’s SC propaganda that Russians and “Russian-speakers” have interests more in alignment with Moscow and Putin than with Latvia and other citizens of Latvia.  Why is SC so tight with Moscow and Putin?  You (and Into) worry about March 16 being commemorated but add to the Russian-tribal “fascist” insult of Latvians by using this insult with no just cause just because that’s what occupant Russians are conditioned to do.  Why act like an “occupant” if you aren’t one?  Occupant Russians and SC members of Latvia’s government think noting of attending “tribal” events like May 9 and convicted Russian occupation war criminal Konovov’s funeral.  Latvians, if they were like occupant Russians, would start calling occupant Russians “Red rapists.”  If one is a reasonable and normal Russian in Latvia, SC is not the party to affiliate with unless one is mindlessly Russian tribal.

Ambersun - the American occupier - asks from Injun Territory aka Michigan:

Vidas,
How are the Poles doing in Lithuania?  Maybe they need some advice from SC about denying the occupation and speaking Russian in Lithuania. 

As with your run-on shrieks regarding LatRuss, I fully expect that you would offer extensive copy and pastes bez komentaru ?

How are the Poles doing in Lithuania Ambersun ?

As you Google from occupied Injun Territory aka Michigan - you ironically shriek about occupation.

ambersun - 15 October 2011 12:03 PM

Aleks,
We spent a virtual eternity on LOL wasting time about the fact of the occupation.  Years in Latvia have been wasted with occupant Russians refusing to acknowledge their or their ancestors occupation of Latvia.  There are plenty of ethnic Russians and others who were living in Latvia, were Latvia’s citizens, who were also subjected to the occupations and would never think to waste time like occupant Russians denying that their was occupation.  I know some of them.  Some even were DPs and id’d as “Latvians” when asked “nationality” upon entry to the U.S.  Your Old Believers were persecuted not by Latvians but by other Russians and yet you become tribal in flocking to May 9 and voting SC.  It is you who can’t sort the Russians appropriately but are tribal in thinking that only SC represents “Russians.”  Poor Into thinks occupant Russians can speak for other minorities in Latvia otherwise there simply is no minority representation is Latvia.  It’s SC propaganda that Russians and “Russian-speakers” have interests more in alignment with Moscow and Putin than with Latvia and other citizens of Latvia.  Why is SC so tight with Moscow and Putin?  You (and Into) worry about March 16 being commemorated but add to the Russian-tribal “fascist” insult of Latvians by using this insult with no just cause just because that’s what occupant Russians are conditioned to do.  Why act like an “occupant” if you aren’t one?  Occupant Russians and SC members of Latvia’s government think noting of attending “tribal” events like May 9 and convicted Russian occupation war criminal Konovov’s funeral.  Latvians, if they were like occupant Russians, would start calling occupant Russians “Red rapists.”  If one is a reasonable and normal Russian in Latvia, SC is not the party to affiliate with unless one is mindlessly Russian tribal.

In all of this, you didn’t use the most important word for any Republic, including the Republic of Latvia. You didn’t use the word “voters.” The voters are lost in your logic. And that is what is really sad.

Your Old Believers were persecuted not by Latvians but by other Russians and yet you become tribal in flocking to May 9 and voting SC

Up until recently, not a single “Latvian” party ever bothered asking for their votes. I had an argument about this with some people from the Unity. They really expect the “good” Russians come to them. Can you think of any other democracy where political parties expect voters to come on the party’s terms? I cannot. That, my dear ambersun, is tribalism. For all your chiding about SC being tribal, they campaigned in both Russian and Latvian, reaching out to their constituency. The only party in the past elections that even bothered with the Russian-speakers was ZRP. So who’s tribal, really? Should I expect more projection? 

You (and Into) worry about March 16 being commemorated but add to the Russian-tribal “fascist” insult of Latvians by using this insult with no just cause just because that’s what occupant Russians are conditioned to do.

The great Valdises—Dombrovskis and Zatlers—worry about it also. Are they occupant Russians too?

Occupant Russians and SC members of Latvia’s government think noting of attending “tribal” events like May 9 and convicted Russian occupation war criminal Konovov’s funeral.

What nonsense is this? What SC members were ever in Latvia’s government at the time of Kononov’s funeral? And what SC members were at Kononov’s funeral? You mean an alleged wreath from the Riga City Council which actually was misreported by Latvijas Avize?

In all of this, you didn’t use the most important word for any Republic, including the Republic of Latvia. You didn’t use the word “voters.” The voters are lost in your logic. And that is what is really sad.

Personally, I was most impressed with Ambersuns characterizing 259,930 Latvian citizens as mindless Russian tribals…

Ambersun doesnt care about LatRussian voters or the Republic. Ambersun wants you join her as a mindless Latvian tribal Aleks. From Latvia Michigan as opposed to that place, you know, way over there.

It’s one thing to take the time to debate issues of concern for all the citizens of Latvia with citizens of Latvia, it’s another to have to waste time fending off gratuitous attacks and nonsensical intrusions from a pathologically hostile non-citizen like Wahabist who adds nothing of substance while evading relevant questions about the claims of discrimination from the Polish “minority” in Lithuania.

Alesksejs,
You’re missing something very fundamental. 
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_role_of_the_people_in_a_democracy
In a democracy, citizens are not passive vehicles to be filled by any propaganda and political spin tossed their way from competing political parties.  It is the responsibility of a citizen to be an active participant and become informed.  Also, being a responsible citizen is not about some narrow self interest but about the well being of the nation.  This means becoming educated on issues from a number of sources and not just from the “solicitations” of political parties or one’s favorite Russian language newspaper.  Of course, that’s ideal.  In Latvia, there are a number of political parties competing for the support of the people.  It is the responsibility of the citizen to do some work and become familiar with “choices.”  The Russians in Latvia need to do more than read propaganda newspapers and flock to vote for some superficial claim of a party being “pro-Russian.”  It is the choice of too many Russians in Latvia to remain isolated in their “Russian parallel universe” and support those politicians who superficially have a Russian name and speak Russian.  After twenty years, I think Russians need to start looking in the mirror to see themselves in their behavior in Latvia and stop pointing fingers in blame at everyone else, especially at anyone they perceive as being an “ethnic Latvian.” 

http://karlisstreips.blogspot.com/
piektdiena, 2011. gada 14. oktobris
Ušakova apšaubāmās tēzes

Labrīt, lasītāji!

Vakar un šodien vairākos mūsu valsts centrālajos laikrakstos bijusi intervija ar Rīgas mēru un Saskaņas centra līderi Nilu Ušakovu, un visās intervijās viņš pauž divas vismaz apšaubāmas, ja ne pilnībā noraidāmas tēzes.

Pirmā ir par to, ka lēmums, valdības koalīciju veidot bez SC, nozīmē diskrimināciju. Gluži diskrimināciju pret krieviem ne, tam Ušakovs īsti nepiekrītot, bet katrā gadījumā diskrimināciju pret visiem tiem, kuri balsoja par SC, it īpaši Latgalē, kur apvienība 17. septembrī ieguva pat 52 procentus visu balsu. Te nu jāsaka, ka Rīgas mērs acīmredzot nesaprot vienu no galvenajiem elementiem politiskajos procesos, proti—vienmēr ir kāds, kas paliek aiz borta vai zaudētājos. Tās partijas, kuras veidos nākamo koalīciju, kopā ieguva 54 procentus balsu, tātad—vairākumu. Saskaņas centrs un “zaļie zemnieki” ieguva 41 procentu balsu, tātad—mazākumu (atlikušās balsis saņēma tās partijas un apvienības, kuras Saeima neiekļuva). Te ir runa par politisko procesu, nevis par diskrimināciju, kaut vai tādā nozīmē, ka Latgalei nevar būt cits Ministru kabinets nekā pārējai Latvijai. Protams, cita lieta, ka tās partijas un apvienības, kuras sakās pārstāvam mūsu valsts “krievvalodīgos,” nekad pie varas nav bijušas, taču ņem kā gribi, bet tā ir pirmkārt viņu un nevis citu vaina. Saskaņas centram un tā dažādajām sastāvdaļām tomēr laika gaitā sakrājies pietiekami daudz grēku i iekšpolitiskā, i arī ārpolitiskā nozīmē. Kā esmu rakstījis citreiz, neesmu pilnīgi pārliecināts, ka šoreiz tas bija pareizais lēmums, SC kārtējo reizi, tā teikt, atstāt kandidātos, bet tāds nu process ir, un ar diskrimināciju tam nav nekāda sakara. Jo tādā gadījumā būtu jāsaka, ka diskriminēti allaž ir visi tie ļaudis, kuri ir balsojuši par partijām, kuras nav uzņemtas koalīcijā, nemaz nerunājot par tiem, kuri ir balsojuši par partijām, kuras vispār nav pārvarējušas 5% barjeru. Piedevām jākonstatē arī tas, ka paredzamā koalīcija acīmredzot taisās būt visnotaļ dāsna jautājumā par opozīcijas lomu Saeimā—tas nav kaut kas tāds, kas mūsu parlamentā notiek automātiski, piemēram, “stabilitātes garanta” valdīšanas laikā opozīcija Saeimā tika ignorēta pilnībā un pavisam. Saskaņas centram tagad ir visas iespējas pierādīt, ka tas spēj būt konstruktīvs spēks arī opozīcijā, kā arī Latvijas Republikas sabiedrībā. Te Ušakovs sūta jauktus signālus. Intervijā, kas vakar parādījās laikrakstā Diena, no viņa mutes atkal, un šoreiz latviešu valodā, izskanēja vārds “okupācija.” Taču intervijā, kas šodien ir citā laikrakstā, viņš uzstāj, ka SC nekādi neatbalstīs 2012. gada valsts budžetu, ja tajā nebūs paredzēta pensiju indeksācija jau no 2012. gada. Protams, tāda ir opozīcijas loma—oponēt, bet SC bija gatavs atteikties no pensiju indeksācijas tad, kad bija iespēja iekļūt koalīcijā, un šī lēmuma ekonomiskais pamatojums nav citāds tagad, kad SC būs opozīcijā./... ./

No, ambersun, it’s you who are missing something important. Regardless of why citizens vote for certain parties, they voted the way the voted. Now you’re not only discarding almost 260,000 Latvian citizens as “mindless”, but you’re also essentially calling them ignorant, subjected to propaganda etc. It certainly doesn’t explain why “Latvian” parties couldn’t be bothered to break that propaganda in a language those people use in their daily lives. It cannot explain why Vienotiba doesn’t even have a site in Russian, or does it talks in Russian or makes any attempt at gaining Russian votes. You, much like people in Vienotiba, want to have the Russian voters alone to shoulder the responsibility for their decisions, but if no one else speaks to them in their language, can you really blame them? You say, “In Latvia, there are a number of political parties competing for the support of the people.” I hope by “the people” you mean citizens of Latvia, so please name “a number of parties” that are seriously competing for the vote of all citizens of Latvia. I can only think of ZRP and SC.

Streips, by the way, is responding on something completely different. The Russian newspapers came out with the same front page, protesting against “discrimination.” But that is not my complaint as I explained repeatedly. I don’t see the party not being in the government as any form of discrimination. My complaint is that a party voted in by almost 260,000 people is essentially deemed illegitimate by the Latvian ruling elites. It’s not a question of discrimination of Russians; it’s a question of legitimacy of their votes for what they see as their party because no one else is really bothering with them. And that is what I would protest against by participating in a signature drive.

And I can quote Streips back at you

Taču neskatoties uz šāda veida šaubām (un, jā, Saskaņas centrs laika gaitā ir pietiekami nogrēkojies, lai tajā nekādu politisku rožu dobi nesaskatītu), fakts ir tāds, ka tomēr ir pienācis laiks saprast, ka Latvijas Republikas nākotnē svarīgākais jautājums nav un vēlreiz nav dalījums starp latviešiem un nelatviešiem.  Ekonomiskā krīze vienlīdz sāpīgi trāpīja abām grupām.  Ekonomisko emigrantu (lasi—bēgļu) starpā ir abu kopienu pārstāvji.  Abās kopienās ir ļaudis, kuri cer, ka nākamā valdība pavisam nopietni ķersies klāt pie valsts budžeta, aizdevumu programmas, eksporta veicināšanas, pārvaldes sistēmas reformēšanas.

PS By the way, Estonians with whom Latvia shares the Soviet past, don’t have a problem using Russian in their party advertising. Take Ansip’s Reform Party, a bit more nationalistic Isamaa ja Res Publica Liit.

Ambersun - the American occupier - can’t stay on topic from occupied Michigan, California or anywhere else:

It’s one thing to take the time to debate issues of concern for all the citizens of Latvia with citizens of Latvia, it’s another to have to waste time fending off gratuitous attacks and nonsensical intrusions from a pathologically hostile non-citizen like Wahabist who adds nothing of substance while evading relevant questions about the claims of discrimination from the Polish “minority” in Lithuania.

If you want to start a thread advertising your total lack of insight into the challenges of Lithuania’s Polish minority - go ahead. I’m sure your total lack of first hand knowledge on the topic will thrill the readership via scintillating copy and paste bez komentaru.

So, now. Back to the topic. Ambersun, whats pathologically hostile is your cro magnon level hate of Latvians of Russian descent. I’m curious, what logical end does such a point of view result in ? It’s clearly intolerant. If you don’t like Latvian citizens of Russian descent then obviously you can’t care for Latvian citizens of Polish descent or any other member who otherwise doesnt belong to your singularly imagined clan.

Your point of view very simply is thinly disguised racism sprinkled with no small amount of religious intolerance - something that modern society shunned as a failure some 100+ years ago.

More tribalism for ambersun…

Rīga, 17.okt., LETA. Nacionālās apvienības “Visu Latvijai” - “Tēvzemei un Brīvībai”/LNNK līderim Raivim Dzintaram nav patīkami, ka “Saskaņas centrs” (SC) piketā pie Saeimas izmanto Latvijas karogus, aģentūrai LETA atzina Dzintars.

Viņš pauda viedokli, ka pagaidām gan pie Saeimas nekas dižs nenotiek, jo citos piketos redzējis daudz vairāk cilvēku.

Dzintaram ir patīkami, ka “nekas dižs nav izdevies”, bet viņam nepatīk Latvijas karogu izmantošana, jo līdzšinējā darbībā SC bijusi vērsta “uz Latvijas karoga nolaišanu”.

Ir nepieļaujami, ka tiek šķirots, kuri Latvijas iedzīvotāji var nākt ar karogiem un kuri nevar, uzskata apvienības “Saskaņas centrs” (SC) līderis Nils Ušakovs.