Peteris,
Well, I’m glad you got that off your sanctimonious chest and now are feeling really good about how much better of a Latvian - if you are one - than I am, which was never an issue except in the cacophony of your cosmopolitan-deluded mind.  You and the simians who think that if you bow low enough to scrape your knuckles bloody, those in the parallel universe will finally be convinced that you are truly sincere about wanting them to feel at home acting like anything they want including occupants on May 9 and whenever and speaking whatever language they want - or don’t want, like the “official” language.  This is your idea of the new Latvian democracy as envisioned by most certainly not a normal and rational patriot like Lelis back in time and whom you keep citing out of context of his trimda times.  Also, you keep referring to Ijabs and what you would like others to believe is his dissing of the value of “tautiskums” for Latvia but should we think him a hypocrite then for dragging his tautiesa-self to the trimda Latvian centers of Garezers and Katskili this summer?  What was he doing here immersing himself in “tautiskums” but dissing it for you?  If he has better ideas, he didn’t share them - and I can tell you he was most depressing and uninspiring.  He thinks the young people of Latvia have so many more pressing interests than being involved with politics.  Yup, a real Latvian “John Kennedy.”  The personal is political and that’s why Latvia is yours with the inspiration of an Ijabs and all that knuckle-scraping.

Ambersun again highlights her bad faith.

Oh dear Irena, I don’t care about Gerhards and certainly am the last person to be looking for a pure politician - or white knight in Latvian-language armor to rescue Latvia.

Then why the constant downpour of Jukka and Snore references ?

$5 sez that you didn’t know who Gerhards was 2 weeks ago.

I simply saw this as an example of speaking Latvian like should have been done for all the previous times he and so many others spoke Russian.  Seems not only Mamikin got used to Latvians answering in Russian.

It’s simple to use hindsight to form an opinion after you have the opportunity to read what form criticism takes. Ambersun, you posted a link to a Lithuanian language article without comment - and I daresay, without the ability to read and understand Lithuanian. Given the two facts - you simply saw the article you can’t read as what ?

That tells me two things. One, you’re out of touch with the issue given that there was no lack of Latvian language articles on the interview. Two your use of an article written in a language that you and the LOL readership in general cannot read is a means of deception.

Again, you act in bad faith - yet shine your Evil Eye on others ? Look in a mirror.

Wahabist - scourge of sanctimonious Medusas

Ambi, you think, in all seriousness, that Latvians have to visit the long-dead trimda for tautiskums? What year is this, honey?

/P

Sveika Amber!

Regarding your response to my post:  You say you don’t care about Gerhards, about the politics, but you SHOULD care, especially if you are going to hold this man up as a role model to bolster your argument.  What—you really couldn’t find any body better than this piss poor of an example??!!  Context, means everything , especially here and it’s already been pointed out that the man is a scoundrel who was using language not out of any genuine conviction but as a way to squirm his way out of a scandal for which he was responsible. This is not a case where you can separate the man from his politics as if he were a musician or an artist.  What this does do in effect, is to reaffirm your own personal favoritism, elevation for Latvians—all things Latvian, while, ignoring any wrong doing on their part.  This doesn’t help your case for Latvia at all and is actually a hindrance.  Chances are good that an outsider would pick up on this bias and have a tendency to question, if not dismiss, whatever you said, even if it was fact, the truth. 

Irena

I feel compelled to respond to this phrase in Ambersun’s post, too:

Also, you keep referring to Ijabs and what you would like others to believe is his dissing of the value of “tautiskums” for Latvia…

It is not about “dissing” the value of tautiskums; that is another of your distortions. It is about questioning the relevance and effectiveness of a certain tautiskums in building a modern society. As to my liking others to believe something—excuse me, but I linked directly to Ījabs’ text, twice. Here, for a third time:

Negribu noliegt šo tradīciju vērtību mūsu kultūras vēsturē, taču šaubos, ka, balstoties tikai šajā arsenālā, ir iespējams veidot kādu modernu latvietību mūsdienu Latvijas situācijā.

He goes on to describe how such a focus on folklore, dainas, dancing and singing in choirs was discredited in the Soviet period, when this very same tautiskums was used to legitimize the regime.

This kind of ethnic culture can gel perfectly with a totalitarian society, too, whether that is Soviet or one devoted to Latvian operetta fascism.

Not even independence is required; as a child, I often saw Native Americans singing their ancient songs and performing rituals for tourists. Nowadays many have casinos, at least.

Ījabs:

Diez vai šāda latvietība patiesi būs tā, kas ļaus cilvēkiem apzināties savu piederību mūsu tautai un valstij. Tā vietā drīzāk būtu vajadzīga reāla līdzdalība un piemērota vide cilvēku izaugsmei viņu individuālajā dažādībā un atšķirīgajās dzīves iecerēs.

41 years earlier, Dr. Lelis wrote:

Atjaunoja arī atmodas laika tautiskās propagandas metodes - latviešu folkloras un etnografijas izcelšanu. Tas viss kopā pamazām kļuvis par turpat vai formālizētu tautisku reliģiju; un tie, kuŗi pārvalda patriotiskos saukļus, slavē arī senčus, runā par Latvijas atbrīvošanu, skaitās “tautas darbinieki”.

[...]

Tāpat tikai romantisma laikmetā, kad visā Eiropā bija paradums jūsmot par pagātni un vācieši dievināja ģermāņu primitīvismu, arī latviešiem bija svarīgi izrādīt savu tautas tērpu dažādību un dižoties ar “ģeometriskajiem” rakstiem, kas tiešām ir visprimitīvākie - bet visas tās ir pagājušā gadsimta metodes un cīņas līdzekļi; cīņas, kuŗa jau izcīnīta un uzvarēta. Šodien mums ir cita veida cīņa, ko varēs veikt tikai ar jauniem ieročiem, ne mūzeja arsenālu, lai kāda bijusi tā vēsturiskā nozīme.

I agree with both of them that an emphasis on the folkloristic is not the main path to a modern Latvian identity (both even use the same term—arsenal); this isn’t dissing the ethnic, it is saying that this arsenal is of limited value in constructing a civic or political nation. VVF served two terms and frequently appeared in folk costume exhorting the nation to self-confidence—fine. But did it work? No.

There is no lack of focus on the ethnic, in all its aspects, in Latvia.

I will again quote Veiko Spolītis, too:

Es piekrītu tam, ka mēs kultivējam nacionālo identitāti — šeit tiek kultivēta nacionāli etniskā identitāte. Kaut gan šajā nacionālajā identitāte varētu uz[s]vērt arī pilsonisko identitāti. Un tā ir Latvijas sāpe. Etniskais elements, protams, ir svarīgs. Bet pie mums tiek kultivēts tikai tas. Tajā vietā, lai pārņemtu Eiropas vispārējās apgaismības idejas, cilvēki nobīstas un ieraujas aizvien sevī. Tas ir mūsu provinciālisms, kas daudzām valstīm jau ir kaut kas vēsturisks, kur cilvēki jau pieņem multikulturālismu. Nacionālās valstis vienmēr pastāvēs, bet tās arī pielāgojas laikam. Kad tas notiks Latvijā, tas ir cits jautājums.

Vysu lobu,
/P

Irena writes:”...you SHOULD care, especially if you are going to hold this man up as a role model to bolster your argument.” 
Irena, what is my argument?  Let’s return to what I actually said and stop making a false case about something I never did say. I don’t obsess with Gerhards in that Latvia is full of wretched politicians, far worse than he - and among them are so many of the Russian-speaking others whether it’s Pliners or Ushakovs, who gladly would have answered Mamkin in Russian.  I think it’s very telling that your comments about Ushakovs have been more about his looks as “a young James Spader” than about his “cynical” wishy/washy statements about occupation, his embrace of May 9 and other Soviet and Russian holidays in Latvia, etc.  So what do you know about Pliners?  What about the SC and their politics and that video link I posted? Why haven’t the Russian-speakers learned Latvian like Gerhards has learned Russian?  Why wasn’t a translation provided by the interviewer Mamikin?  Why haven’t translations been provided for years?  Why haven’t you asked THESE questions and why are you not concerned with them but only with dwelling on one individual and one incident?  What point was Mamikin trying to make to you and other Latvians?  You don’t find his behavior insulting to Latvians and the Latvian language beyond that one incident?  Why no comments on his unprofessional and insulting behavior?  Why don’t you and those others who haven’t and don’t stand get off your tushes and do right by Latvian so that Gerhards isn’t the only example of “doing the right thing” by the Latvian language?  Had Latvians already just been speaking in their Latvian language, politicians and Russian-speakers wouldn’t be in the position to be exploiting a confrontation like this.  Had Latvians established clear boundaries and showed consistency in speaking Latvian right from the beginning, we all would not be in this mess in Latvia with these “parallel universe” arguments.  Where do you stand on the language issues?  Are you for bilingualism?  Should there have been a translation provided for “the Latvian diplomat” or for Irena?  How would you have wanted Mamikin to treat you?

I wrote: “I simply saw this as an example of speaking Latvian like should have been done for all the previous times he and so many others spoke Russian.  Seems not only Mamikin got used to Latvians answering in Russian.” 

And that stupidity from Vidiot is just boring.  Someone go to scb and see how scathingly he’s disparaged off LOL where there’s not censorship.

Ambi wrote:

Why haven’t you asked THESE questions and why are you not concerned…

Seriously? I think THESE questions have been discussed here for some time. In detail. With specifics. With some sort of basis. With some insight. And whenever it gets down to the nitty-gritty, you run away.

/P

...do right by Latvian…

In your mouth, dahlink, that has got to be the funniest phrase of the month.

/P

Peteris,
The question went to Irena but I’m sure you think it’s been asked and answered.  Obviously, so does Mamikin and the Russian-speakers who don’t understand why a Latvian wouldn’t just continue using Russian like he always has before.  What if the interview had been with Anna Zigure or Sandra Kalniete?  Would we then be discussing something beyond Gerhards?  How would you have responded to Mamikin?  Is Mamikin still employed in the same “professional capacity?”  Does the station now provide translators from Latvian to Russian?  I wonder WHO is looking into this?  Is Mamikin learning Latvian?  Gee, why do I not feel that it all has been asked, discussed, and satisfactorily answered.

I already indicated that I think Mamikin behaved like the scum of the earth, no? But Mamikin is fluent in Latvian. One of his fave books is the text by Uldis Ģērmanis used as a history text in trimda schools—so, see, your “re-education” program won’t work. He has many Latvian friends. You won’t get far with this line of reasoning. Worst of all when you bring up stuff like—I wonder WHO is looking into this? I live in a free country. It is a Russian-language show. I don’t see any reason to “look into it.” That’s the first reaction you have? Excuse me, but asking “tendentious” questions like “is Latvian independence a fateful mistake” is his right—that most answer “yes” is not exactly the fault of his question, even if skewed.

I repeat—this is free country. Let Mamikin do his show, and let people respond. If the party of Gerhards wants to criminalize denial of the occupation… well, such are the tendencies. As I said, Latvians have Soviet tendencies. Even more than Russians do, often.

/P

as a child, I often saw Native Americans singing their ancient songs and performing rituals for tourists.

Including the longtime outlawed Ghost Dance, I suppose?! Amazing…

Since the Ghost Dance (see, e.g., http://acta.uta.fi/pdf/951-44-5690-4.pdf) is (since it really never died!) a dance performed not for the tourists, but to make the White man (= the invader) disappear. It was prophesied that if the Ghost Dance was practiced, the invader would vanish. Consequently, Indians world would return to the way it used to be, filled with an abundance of wildlife, prior to the invaders arriving. The dance scared the hell out of the White man so, it was forbidden..

During the Wounded Knee liberation, the warriors lived in their traditional manner, celebrating a birth and a marriage, as well as mourning the death of two of their fellow warriors inside Wounded Knee. It was a great victory for the Oglala Sioux as well as all other native nations.

Thus, for a short period of time in 1973, the Oglala Sioux were a free people once more.
After 71 days, the siege at Wounded Knee had come to an end, with the US government making nearly 1,200 arrests of participants as common criminals, not as prisoners of war.
But this would only mark the beginning of what had come to be known as the “reign of terror” instigated by the FBI and the BIA.

During the three years following Wounded Knee, 64 tribal members became victims of unsolved murder, 300 were harassed and beaten, and 562 illegal arrests were made, with 15 convicted of criminal offenses. None were treated as prisoners of war, let alone freedom fighters.

A persecuted people regained their freedom for a brief 71 days on the land of their ancestors at a heavy price, after being victims for eighty years.
British and US atrocities committed against Native Americans over a period of four centuries remain unmatched in scale and duration by anything in history.

There is an old Romanian saying (and even a NGO having this name, AFAIK): Bate șaua, ca să priceapă iapa!

Peteris,
Like I said, if the tolerance and usage boundaries had been clearly set (closer to those in other normal countries or even like those in Estonia and Lithuania) and firmly (not aggresssivley, meanly, obnoxiously, all those distortions that have already come from the cabal to define “firmly” as in following not just the letter but also the spirit of the language law) followed by every normal Latvian and respected in kind by every normal Russian, we might even have gotten someplace as a Latvian nation.  If Mamikin speaks Latvian, then why do you think he didn’t respond to Gerhards in Latvian?  You explain this.  Do we care if Mamikin needs to prove that his feet are bigger than Gerhards’s?  Next time, I can only hope the moron Mamikin doesn’t resort to pulling down his pants.  I wouldn’t put it past someone like him who seems on the verge of losing it to show the little Latvian who is boss by some primitive demonstration. I’d like to see Mamikin interview Zigure or Kalniete.

Ambersun, is this your way of telling me I won $5 ? And no, I won’t accept a personal check.

And that stupidity from Vidiot is just boring.  Someone go to scb and see how scathingly he’s disparaged off LOL where there’s not censorship.

Why go to SCB Ambersun ? I’m right here princess. Feel free to issue scathings and disparaging. But, alas - that would require you to actually participate in this forum. I know that’ll never happen.

Hey, I know - how about you go to SCB Ambersun ? They’ll LOVE you… I’ve met a number of the participants. Peteris even more. I promise I won’t prewarn any of them from our offline chats that you’re that goofy chick from northern California that has a chip on her shoulder so large it blocks out the sun.

It’ll be fun Ambersun, Gintas will likely hit on you after 2 or 3 posts. You’re his dream girl for sure !

Ambersun insists:

You explain this.

On principle, obviously.

87% of Latvia’s ethnic Russians, 19% of ethnic Latvians, and 75% of those of other ethnicities want Russian to be given official language status—a total of 51% of the respondents in the 2004 BSZI study.

You disagree, I disagree… and Mamikin disagrees with you. You use words like “normal” repeatedly, but what you consider normal is considered abnormal by others.

The linguistic environment in Latvia (and within Latvia, regionally) differs from those in what you call “normal” countries, where these environments also differ radically. We can compare apples and bathtubs until the cows come home, if you like.

/P

Vācijas kanclere Rīgas pilī krieviski nerunās