Sveika!

Riga in 1913: 42,2% Latvian, 19,3% Russian, 13,3% German, 9,2% Polish, 6,8% Lithuanian, 6,5% Jewish, 1,7% Estonian, 1% other. In 1920 it was c. 55% Latvian, but with a far smaller population (517 522 in 1913, 185 137 in 1920). I don’t think there are any figures between those years.

Visu gaišu,
/P

P.S. It’s not that there aren’t islands within a country that are multicultural or even foreign, esp. cosmopolitan cities—the point is with regard to frontiers. Liepāja wasn’t very Latvian either, but you’d have to cut through Lithuanian and Latvian areas to join it to Germany or make it a free city, and we all know how that tends to work out. The Vilnius region was also heavily polonized, with many mutable others and Belarusians in between, and it lies at the eastern edge of the country. Latgallia, and that part of Selonia around Ilūkste, were also a patchwork, and Latgallia did see similar contention… but it didn’t contain a major city (e.g., Dvinsk didn’t even have a university back then). Then there’s the flux I mentioned. The course of the war(s) was very different in Lithuania; there were points when parts of Latvia were emptied out, and as Stranga writes the composition of Vilnius during that flux is difficult to determine. But Vilnius had long not been very Lithuanian except as a center of Lithuanian nationalism and intellectual life.

P.P.S. Don’t know Tallinn’s demographics back then, but again—there were/are heavily Estonian areas between it and Russia, which is the only proximate neighbor.

/P

PPS.  “P.S. It’s not that there aren’t islands within a country that are multicultural or even foreign, esp. cosmopolitan cities—the point is with regard to frontiers.”

And yet when the question is about an ally & neighboring country’s capital city, my sole thought could be summarized thus: ‘there but for the grace of God walk I.”

We still do walk very close to that edge, esp. here in Latgola. And I’ve no doubt that if Dvinsk were somebody else’s major city—i.e., if it had been larger and a Polish cultural center—we’d be walking on the other side.

Some Poles here were quite enthused when Poland occupied its little corner of Czechoslovakia, hoping the Ilūkste region would be next.

According to Andersons, most Latvians supported our brothers on the Vilnius question, opposed by the Polish aristocracy here; Balodis, however, made it clear that ruining our relations with our most powerful neighbor was not a bright idea. Cielēns urged Meierovics to strongly protest Żeligowski’s seizure of the region, but Meierovics only drafted a diplomatic note.

As far as I know, Latvia never had a border agreement with Poland (the Latvian-Polish border being with occupied Lithuania); it was about to conclude one, which act would have soured relations with the brāļu tauta, when everything careened into hell.

Vysu lobu,
/P

One quick note before I get back to this later this evening - and I apologize Peters if I went a bit too far into the emotional side. My point with Vilnius being that Poland occupied Vilnius militarily contrary to treaty and rule of law.

Ethnicity is a bad barometer of history and “fairness” is almost always the victorious notion held by the occupier and not the occupied. One other question:

(After Hitler’s invasion of the Baltics/USSR, during Nazi occupation, Lithuania’s border was moved to incorporate Vilnius.)

Stalin returned Vilnius to Lithuania as a part of the August 1939 ultimatum. The Lithuanian Republic ceased to exist in June 1940 when the soviets invaded. Although there was an attempt to restore the Lithuanian Republic immediately after the Nazis invaded in 1941 it was not successful. I’m not aware of Hitlers moving any border given that the Republic had ended a year previously.

Furthermore, you rather miss the more fundamental issue regarding current circumstances: no Latvian Russian wants Russia. Russia is an autocratic oppressive xenophobic (with regard to non-Russian minorities) mess. Even the “oppressed” non-citizen Latvian Russians (BTW, the majority of Latvian Russians are citizens the last time I checked) can travel freely within the EU.

  This is, of course, irrelevant. The Lithuanians weren’t provided choice Peters. Nor should Latvians in my mind. Make an ethnic determination and stick to it, Vilnius was Polish. Fine. Then Riga was Swedish and is Russian. In all fairness.

Who is providing whom what “choice”? You’ve lost me here.

Russia is a xenophobic mess. Russia may be a bad choice (and I’m not making that judgment) but it is a choice. Russian speaking legal residents can also work to obtain Latvian citizenship if that interests them. Or take Russian citizenship. Or travel elsewhere, etc…

This differs significantly from what Lithuanians in Vilnius had in 1920. Military force offers few choices other than to leave.

Lithuania did. It moved its center to Kaunas. It also radicalized and became even more aggressive and nationalistic. Lithuania was pushed into a corner and leaders like Voldemaras made a choice to force the ethnic question and expand the nationalistic aggression outward. Peteris points out examples where Lithuanians were aggressive in his posts. My argument is - had Poland not invaded and illegally occupied the Vilnius region - would ultra-nationalists like Voldemaras risen to power in the environment of national wrong that the invasion created ? The Presidencies of Grinius and Stulginskis moderated - but that came to an end during the coup of 1926. The phrase -Mes be Vilniaus, nenurimsim- was prevalent throughout the country. A statue dedicated to the rightful return of Vilnius still stands outside of the Kernave castle hill. It was no accident that this statue was placed next to a Lithuanian national heritage site.

Apologist? BS? Are we having the same conversation? You’re hearing what you want to hear, not what I’m saying.

In all fairness, as you posted, Vilnius was more Polish than Lithuanian. Thats the crux of the issue. What is the basis of this judgment ? A census taken during occupation by the Germans in WW1 ? Lithuania didnt commission this census as a Lithuanian government didnt exist at the time.

What role did Vilnius play in the Polish identity, nation, government, etc ? The newly rebuilt seat of Polish rule in Vilnius may be something - something entirely ugly as a building - and without any real purpose.  I would have no problem turning that POS over to Poland.

What role did Vilnius play in Lithuanian history, identity, culture ?

Treaties established Vilnius to be a Lithuanian city - Lithuanias center of state and learning. The rule of law was a paper concept during the interwar Republic, but when an example of where the rule of law sided with the Lithuanians - even now they still lose ?

I’m asking - what do you mean by in all fairness ? Fairness in relation to what ? Fair to whom ?

Vidas

Bear in mind that Jews were just behind Poles as a percentage of the population in Vilnius in 1916 (Poles 50,1%, Jews 43,5%, Lithuanians 2,6%). (Yes, some dispute the fairness of the census, but it’s not really possible to claim that the Lithuanian population was significant.)

I believe the Lithuanian population was clearly more significant than 2.6%. This was not a Lithuanian census per se as you note.

In 1920 Vilnius there were 789 businesses registered, 2 gimnazijos, a teachers college of Lithuanian language instruction, close to 200 private primary schools and 7 periodicals published in Lithuanian. This would seem excessive amongst only 2.6% of the population of the rather provincial Vilnius.

Of these Vilnius schools in particular - only the Vytauto Didzioji school remained open with Lithuanian language classes in 1938.