Things that you may not have known about the trials and tribulations of the Latvian language. Ever wonder why the Latvian language lost the soft “ŗ” and the “ch” became a gutless “h”? The following article will fill some of the voids in your Latvian language history.

Latviešu valodai vajadzīgs spēcīgs likums
Autors: Māris Ruks, Dr. phil..
http://www2.la.lv/lat/latvijas_avize/jaunakaja_numura/viedoklis/?doc=70274

Cheers, Ivars

“Skaidri formulētā iekšpolitiskā likumā latvieši tolaik bija nodemonstrējuši savu nostāju…”

Latvieši? I’m not surprised that Ruks confuses “diktators” with “latvieši,” having spent a long night exploring his twisted mind in his bestselling attack on the supposed KGB (and perhaps also CIA) agent VVF (Īsvēsture: Patiesā Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga), wherein Ruks rivals Jaņdžs in a comedic ability to speculate amongst myriad unsupported assertions and creamy, steamy conspiracy theories, Rosicrucians included.

Nostalgia for ethnocentric dictatorship plus disdain for “Europe” is such a compelling recipe for a bright Latvian future, I guess.

Vysu lobu,
/P

As we all know language is immutable and never ever changes. That’s why we are all still writing in ye olde cyning’s language.

Andrejs

The best part of this is: how many actually palatalize the “ŗ”? Write it now and then—great! In speech? And please look into its history a bit deeper —‘cause many a Latvian linguist has long argued against it. But—with all due respect to the ekstrimda—most do not speak Latvian day to day. Still you’re gonna weigh in on an oh-so-weighty ancient “ŗ”?

As to the title of this thread—I’ll take ten Russian accents over at least a couple of American Latvian accents I’ve heard.

/P

In most languages historic spellings survive, even if the pronounciation changes to clarify the meaning.  a good example is “aŗ” (plow) vs. ar (with).  Retaining the “ch” does the same thing.  Furthermore, blame the Romans for translitering the Greek letter “chi” (pronounced khi”) as “ch”.  If “ch” really is to be eliminated, it should be replace by either “k” or “ķ”.  To some degree it has already been done, such as “China” became “ĶĪna” and “chemistry” “ķīmija.

Most languages undergo orthographic reform (e.g., the recent French “rectifications” and extensive German Rechtschreibreform). But to talk about “historic spellings” in Latvian is rather absurd, since the current orthography dates to 1919 (and was revised repeatedly thereafter, too). Re the “ŗ”:

Mīkstinātais r – mūsu dienās gan tas ir zudis, un neveiksmei nolemti mēģinājumi to atdzīvināt. Kārlis Mīlenbahs ir dedzīgs mīkstinātā r aizstāvis, kaut gan jau gadsimta sākumā tas bija saglabājies tikai nedaudzās izloksnēs. Nav mazsvarīgs fakts, ka starp šīm izloksnēm ir arī Kandavas – valodnieka dzimtā pagasta – izloksne.

Ina Druviete, VVK

There are numerous valid arguments for restoring the “ŗ” (or, to be precise, restoring the “ŗ” that was restored…), but reducing the debate to an ethnopolitical question replete with oft-invoked occupiers seems to me rather… Ambersunny. The problem with “zinātnieki” like Ruks goes deeper, though; Haris Bernāns offers trenchant commentary that also touches on Dr. Ruks’ approach to language in Diena: Latvijas «zinātnieki» iebilst pret sauli debesīs.

This isn’t a 1930s dictatorship (yet?). The Republic hotly debated language policy and Parliament rejected draconian measures. I’ve no objection at all to heated debate about language policies (from different points of view, and as we all know many people would go in the other direction from Ruks—even 19% of ethnic Latvians supported giving Russian official status in 2004 [BSZI .pdf]), but get real. Ruks is exceedingly bitter about VVF’s refusal to sign the stricter language law, hence his fantasies about her motivations; as so often when we argue these things here, the consequences are not addressed. This isn’t 1930s Europe, either.

Vysu lobu,
/P

Briva Latvija still uses “ŗ” in current editions as do various other documents written by/for trimdas latvians in the UK and continental Europe. Do American trimdas latvians now always use the modern spellings?

Most Latvian-Americans, like others in the former trimda who haven’t repatriated, still use the “ŗ” and follow other prewar norms; in nearly all cases, though, a text would be edited to reflect current norms if published here.

Vysu lobu,
/P

There must be something irrationally destructive about the little mighty Latvian consonant ”ŗ” used freely for centuries in the Latvian language that causes the extreme left wing socialists to see red! I mean, it was contrary to the treatment it received when Latvia became occupied by the hordes from the east. Their soviet leaders and some eager Latvian sympathizers (yes, unfortunately we have some of those in our mist) considered the Latvian language as being too bourgeois and thus unpalatable for Soviet tastes.

But, first let’s get somethings straight. The soft ”ŗ” was not invented by Latvian linguists Kārlis Mīlenbachs (1853 – 1916) or Jānis Enzelīns (1873 – 1961) to antagonize the Latvian natives, as some left wingers are brashly claiming. They merely captured the sounds, analyzed and documented these letters and words in a systematic organized manner next to other appropriate palatalized consonants ģ, ķ, ļ and ņ as part of the Latvian orthography. There were five letters with soft sounds using the cedilla, but now the socialist push is to recognize only four of them despite the similar grammar rules that apply to all five.

In fact the sound of ”ŗ,” rooted in the Indo-European language group and passed on through the Baltic languages, is still very much alive in our Lithuanian sister language. The elimination of this letter ”ŗ,” of course, causes both living Baltic languages to drift further apart without any scientific justification. Besides, the sound ”ŗ” is captured in our “Dainas” that has the oral Latvian folksongs going back a few centuries.

That language changes has been discussed fairly regularly on the Latvian internet since the days of LatBits, before it merged to form LOL. Here the Latvian Dainas have often been used to illustrate changes in Latvian language over time. But, whatever, based on the off theme responses thus far, it looks like the LOLers are not grasping the forced language change aspects during Russification, just clowning around or are truly committed to sovietization.

After reading the article how during the early part of the occupation the Latvian language was methodically decimated in favor of the Russian language Pēteris Cedriņš gleefully bubbles: “I’ll take ten Russian accents over at least a couple of American Latvian accents I’ve heard.” Ah well, Petepoe the subject is about the effects of Russian occupation in Latvia and not American occupation of Latvia. You’ve been living “Russki mir” too long in Dvinskitown, It’s something like a Kremlin syndrome, where you learn to sympathize and identify with neighborhood bullies. But, it may serve you well to protect your hide when the hordes start crossing the border to visit Las Vegas in Rīga, donate money to Ušakovs and Šlesers (aka Leščinskis, his “maiden” name) causes by having streets renamed and statues erected in Rīga for their favorite Russian, buying up Latvia’s fixed assets, and simply taking over, et cetera. After all, according to Nils Ušakovs, “the Latvian language is not going to be around too long.”

There is a difference in having a language change naturally and this change being adapted in everyday usage as opposed to having the language change forced on the users. During the early stages of Russification the Latvian letter ”ŗ” was arbitrarily selected to be a victim of Marrist ideology, known as marrism after Nicholas Marr (1865 - 1934), a Georgian linguist from Stalin’s home state. As unbelievable as it sounds the idea in 1946 was to dumb down the Latvian language so that it would not sound too bourgeois. There was nothing scientific about the decision. Even Stalin in 1953 repudiated this Marrist methodology, but Latvians in power clung tight to the idea of having dumbed down Latvian Homo Sovieticus around so that they can borrow from the “Big Brother” language and, of course, stay in power.

Kušķis Jānis (the foremost Latvian linguist today) - Kā lietot Ŗ, ŗ - “Pat Staļins atzina, ka Marra uzskati kļūdaini. Un vai kāds varētu noticēt, ka esam spiesti joprojām lietot marrisku valodu?... Neticami – taču tieši tā tas ir. - Bet atsākt lietot aizliegto ŗ nav grūti vai neiespējami. Sāc arī Tu!”
http://eraksti.delfi.lv/index.php?autors=Ku��is+J�nis&b=1 - [next click on Jānis Kušķis on the left]

(To be continued ...)

(... continued)

I’ve not heard any true Latvian linguist argue against the soft ”ŗ” other than those who have succumbed to sovietization, like Ina Druviete, member of VVC. Consider her nonsense comment mentioned on this thread: “Mīkstinātais r – mūsu dienās gan tas ir zudis, un neveiksmei nolemti mēģinājumi to atdzīvināt. Kārlis Mīlenbahs ir dedzīgs mīkstinātā r aizstāvis, kaut gan jau gadsimta sākumā tas bija saglabājies tikai nedaudzās izloksnēs. Nav mazsvarīgs fakts, ka starp šīm izloksnēm ir arī Kandavas – valodnieka dzimtā pagasta – izloksne.” when one considers the territorial spread of ”ŗ” where there are users in Kurzeme and Lithuania (there’s a connection and it just does not evaporate at the border with related languages), as well as Vidzeme, where many of my folks are from. The trimdies in my home town of Boston arrived from all over Latvia bringing the ”ŗ” with them without agonizing over the little letter as being out of place or too difficult for them to use. It was not as if the trimdies suddenly woke up and started learning how to use a rarely articulated ”ŗ,” as per Ina Druviete’s insinuation. It had always been there - “Jūŗas kŗupim gŗāvī gŗūti.”

Valsts Valodas Centrs (VVC – it’s a fortress) has gone the way of Saeima, unloved and untrusted by the Latvian tauta.

Here are just a few links concerning the politics of the Latvian language:

Mārtiņš Sausiņš, Latviešu Nacionāla apvienības Kanādas valdes priekšsēdis – šis raksts liek mums saprast kādi cilvēki vada Latviju: viņi ir kruki jeb viņi ir nezinīši! {:~)
http://www.delfi.lv/news/comment/comment/article.php?id=19243732

Krišjāņa Valdemāra noliktais termiņš ir beidzies – A worthwhile discussion amongst linguists Jānis Kušķis, Gundega Vētra and writer Mārtiņš Zelmenis.
http://www.diena.lv/lat/izklaide/kd/krisjana-valdemara-noliktais-termins-ir-beidzies

Kas notiek ar latviešu valodu neatkarīgajā Latvijas valstī? - an interview with Austris Grasis, a linguist, folklorist, ex-trimdie, composed the song “Zeme, zeme, kas taa zeme,” et cetera
http://www.lv.lv/?menu=doc&id=197937

Cheers, Ivars

N.B. - the little ”ŗ” is just a tip of the iceberg of how the Latvian language was deliberately crippled during the occupation. There is much, much more on the subject how the Latvian language was and is being unnaturally decimated. At the moment I have other things on my plate and little time to spread around. The worst thing politically at this stage would be inability of Latvia to recover socially, economically, politically and caving in to “Russki mir,” which many of Latvia’s politicians are embracing.

‘twas interjesting to to see Austerjoid’s spiel, Ivarjius…....................

I am thrilled to the marrow to learn that this itty-bitty diacritic serves as a right-wing element somewhere in the New World. I hope it wears an armband!

Other than that: “‘What is that noise?’ / The wind under the door. / ‘What is that noise now? What is the wind doing?’ / Nothing again nothing.”

Visu gaišu,
/P

P.S. As long as political complexions are to influence palatalization—pray tell, Ivariņ, does Jānis Kušķis (“the foremost Latvian linguist today”) have his priorities in any particular order? As the Chairman of Latvietis, which proudly hawks a Latvian translation of Mein Kampf on the Web, he was a candidate for Parliament from the extremist NSS in the last elections. So what takes precedence—deporting blacks and Russkies, bashing gays, celebrating Cukurs’ birthday, or the “ŗ”?

/P

Geez, I don’t know Petepoe. I only came across him the other day. Wish I could help you. He does appear to be more than your counter weight with “Russki mir.” Hmm, might be too heavy for yeh? Be careful!

Here is his short resume. May be you should lay yours side by side and compare. Say, start with his Triju Zvaigžņu ordenis and than you place your whatever next to it and keep adding and comparing. Who knows he might even show you his Latvian translation of Mein Kampf and you can show him your collection of Trotsky works. You may even find a good friend in him, after all you both are men of letters. You know, that’s how friendships are made, especially when you least expect it!

http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jānis_Kušķis

Cheers, Ivars

My, my, Graudiņa kungs. I realize you’re a sleazeball, so I won’t ask you to show me where I’ve promoted “the Russian world.” Here, perhaps? Sorry, but my positions—repeatedly made perfectly clear—require no fascist counterweights.

“I only came across him the other day…” But I see you’ve pronounced him “the foremost Latvian linguist today”; peering into the depths via Google is of such profundity. But woe is me—I mean, having read Trotsky as an adolescent is somehow equivalent to heading an association that sells Mein Kampf (”šajā grāmatā atradīsiet atbildes arī uz notiekošo Latvijā”) and running for Parliament with neo-Nazis.

Vysu lobu,
/P

That’s a good article, Petepoe, “The Russian World” despite that it’s loaded to impress, hence not easy to follow, rather than conveying a clear message. But I guess that everyman of letters has his turbulent style causing contradictions and petty grievances that lean too far left or too far right. These internal squabbles can escalate into a dangerous clash of civilizations. I do encourage others to allocate time from their busy schedules and read what Petepoe has to say in “The Russian World.”

Latvia is a small nation but it has a language that we should be proud to honk the horn about. It’s one of the oldest living languages in the world, which linguists study to understand still other languages. The destruction of ”ŗ” is not just another “.. itty-bitty diacritic serves as a right-wing element somewhere in the New World.” It should also serve the left-wing element of the Latvian nation, as well as those in the center. The fate of ”ŗ” is merely symbolic for the forced pidginisation of the entire Latvian language that still takes place today. At least we know how this destruction happened. Now is not the time to roll over with the encroachment of “Russki mir” and pretend that elimination of ”ŗ” is a normal and acceptable change in Latvian orthography.

Cheers, Ivars