Gatis Krūmiņš: “Ulmanis. Kolaboracionisms. Nepieciešama precizēšana.”

Vysu lobu,
/P

Peteris has found his Ulmanis-loathing soulmate to promote and another faux-historian to admire. Nothing like having misinformation/disinformation coming form the mouth of Soviet-deformed babes. 

Gatis obviously doth protest too much:

“Mans mērķis nav padarīt vēl tumšāku skatu uz mūsu pagātni vai kādu īpaši nomelnot (arī to bieži pārmet), bet norādīt uz pagātnes kļūdām, par kurām jārunā, lai tās neatkārtotu nākotnē.”

Really?
 
Gati, “nakotne” has been here for years (!) and you’ve got more new-and-better “kludas” to worry about than those of Ulmanis and yesterday!  How brill can you be?  You and yours of today give collaboration a new and previously-unimagined meaning.  Do something meaningful and helpful and spend some time exposing the new “kolaboracionisms” in front of your face before there is no Latvia with its “pagatnes kludam” to kick around.

Hey, Gatis, when can we look forward to you and your soulmates running for public office since y’all been talkin’ about “pagatnes kludam” for more years than the years of the kludas?  How long does it take to learn those lessons from history and just do a better today?  I would hate to think that Latvia is full of really slow learners or, gosh forbid,  that there’s something nefarious afoot. 

Gatis, Peteris, and soulbrothers, paraphrasing from the comments: “Cilveks sen atdusas, find someone better!”

Vārdu trūkst.

/P

Ulmanis failed to notice that Stalin had no friends or enemies, only interests.  Consequently, his strategy of meek surrender did not earn any Brownie points in the eyes of Stalin.  Some hard bargaining could have earned at least some respect.  Stalin was eager to avoid any overt conflict, and might have made some concessions.

Spectator is surely right. I am especially unhappy when Latvians reproach Lithuanians with Smetona’s flight. Ulmanis could have earned brownie points if he had said loud and clear that the Soviets were illegally taking over an unwilling neighboring country by force. I don’t think he could have prevented the occupation by ordering the army to fight, but he could have stated a strong and truthful official position instead of giving the impression that the occupation was sort of all right. He went meekly into the darkness and died early. No fan of either Smetona or Ulmanis, I don’t want to ponder the degree of blame appropriate to each, & I don’t think the divas brāļu tautas ought to squabble about whose dictator was better.

Stephen

Stephen puts forth the following:

...but he (Ulmanis) could have stated a strong and truthful official position instead of giving the impression that the occupation was sort of all right. He went meekly into the darkness and died early.

So how is the reader to take this? That Ulmanis wastefully and meekly died early?

I don’t know of the rest of the readers, but anytime one is forcibly sent to dark Moscow for a “vacation“ ...

So all those Latvians who later boarded those “cattle” trains to Russia/USSR, merely died meekly way too early in the snow?

Mikus E.

P.S. Yes, I although agree with you that the Baltic should not bicker as to whose Baltic dictator was actually greater!—-But it also should not be the excuse to forget history just to make some personal point.
P.P.S. Should we not at the very least consider that Ulmanis was in close contact with the West? So much so that perhaps he was being “convinced” that USSR was only “playing” with Germany?—-That all will be well at the end?  (And is this why the notion of “the great betrayal” still bitterly lingers?)
P.P.P.S. To Aleksejs’ “I don’t know much about the National Bolsheviks, other than they’re neither national nor bolsheviks.”...
So why your posted twist of the term “national”? And if “only repeating”, then do willfully drop “National”.

Stephen - 02 December 2009 06:34 PM

Spectator is surely right. I am especially unhappy when Latvians reproach Lithuanians with Smetona’s flight. Ulmanis could have earned brownie points if he had said loud and clear that the Soviets were illegally taking over an unwilling neighboring country by force. I don’t think he could have prevented the occupation by ordering the army to fight, but he could have stated a strong and truthful official position instead of giving the impression that the occupation was sort of all right. He went meekly into the darkness and died early. No fan of either Smetona or Ulmanis, I don’t want to ponder the degree of blame appropriate to each, & I don’t think the divas brāļu tautas ought to squabble about whose dictator was better.

Stephen

Well, I think it’s more complicated than rolling over versus not. Viz. Munters’ speech here after the pacts…

Munters’ speech

and even after the Soviet troops invaded, Ulmanis was still writing to Stalin looking for some sort of way out. Hindsight, being 20:20, makes assumptions regarding behavior which may seem obvious to us but which, in fact, don’t hold true at all for the actual moment in time.

/P

Stephen et al.,

“I am especially unhappy when Latvians reproach Lithuanians with Smetona’s flight.”

I have not heard any latvians reproach lithuanians about Smetona’s flight.  If anything , Ulmanis was reproached for saying ” es palikšu savā viatā, jūs savās”.

In the estonian discussion about Pats the following was brought up “They detail the promises Pats had made to influence Estonian political events in Moscow’s favor”. Interesting.,Latvia and Estonia had a military alliance treaty.
Yet the news that Estonia had granted military bases to Russia came as a complete surprise to Latvia. ( Latvia received a similar demand from Russia one to two weeks later). What could be the possible reason why Estonia did not inform Latvia,the partner in the military alliance, about the pending russian military bases in Estonia ?
In the invasion of the Baltic States , Moscow was not sure if Latvia would not put up an armed resistance. That is the reason why the Red army invaded not only directly from Russia, but also in a lateral military movement from Lithuania.

Visu labu,

Bruno, the remarks about Smetona’s flight occurred in this forum, long ago enough that I don’t recall the thread or who made them.

Stephen

vecrumba - 03 December 2009 10:57 AM

and even after the Soviet troops invaded, Ulmanis was still writing to Stalin looking for some sort of way out. .

/P

Peteri,

Well, I suspect,  any human being’s able to sign anything with a gun behind the neck.

Especially,  “after the Soviet troops invaded”.

Hindsight, being 20:20, makes assumptions regarding behavior which may seem obvious to us but which, in fact, don’t hold true at all for the actual moment in time

Not really.

There is a difference between Riga’s and Moscow’ s time.

So, Latvian Government’ session in Riga was over later than the moment, when Molotov declared to Latvian Ambassador F. Kocins that Soviet troops enter in any case.

Moscow did not have and could not have any (documentary) “consent” of the Latvian government.

In addition, the government in Riga had no quorum - two ministers were at that moment in Latgale.

Regards,

Juris

http://books.google.com/books?id=p2nanp_wpnkC&pg=RA1-PA26&lpg=RA1-PA26&dq=f.kocins&source=bl&ots=MfM1-G150j&sig=gm9GIOHBlqnFhV8RNWrIT9Kw-MA&hl=en&ei=O1AYS_3sFJKmMafote4C&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=f.kocins&f=false

thanks for reminding of Kocins…......................

peter B - 03 December 2009 04:01 PM

http://books.google.com/books?id=p2nanp_wpnkC&pg=RA1-PA26&lpg=RA1-PA26&dq=f.kocins&source=bl&ots=MfM1-G150j&sig=gm9GIOHBlqnFhV8RNWrIT9Kw-MA&hl=en&ei=O1AYS_3sFJKmMafote4C&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=f.kocins&f=false

thanks for reminding of Kocins…......................

Kocins was shot in early July 1941 (immediately after Hitler’s attack on the USSR) for “an active struggle against the Red Army” in Kommunarka near Moscow.

In fact, he fought against Bermont (White Guard’ troops) in November 1919 as part of the Rigas Studentu Rota.

The fact that he was fully rehabilitated by both Soviet and Russian justice, said that he was shot for nothing.

See also my old atricle

http://www.apollo.lv/portal/life/articles/102644

Regards,

Juris

Sveiki!

“See also my old atricle

http://www.apollo.lv/portal/life/articles/102644”

Labs raksts, Juri, paldies!

Saki, vai gadienā nav uzpeldējis sīkākas ziņas par Marģera Skujenieka nāves dātumu (1941.g.?) un vietu?  Īpaši lasot viņa rakstus un analīzes par 1.-4. Saeimas vēlēšanām (nemaz nerunājot par prātīgiem ieteikumiem, lai mainītu vēlēšanas likumu, būdams, starp citu, CVK priekšnieks), man ir liela cieņa pret viņa.  Gribētos zināt kur un kad viņš mira.

Visu labu,

Elizabete

Sveiki!

Elizabet,

Līdz šim man neizdevās atrast ko par Marģeru Skujenieku.

Es uzmanīgi izskatīju visus apšautos sarakstus Maskavā un reģionā.

Tikai divi Skujenieki tika apšauti 1938.gadā.

Bet es meklēšu ( gribu vēl pārbaudīt Vladimirskas cietumas - Vladimiras Centrāls -  sarakstus, kur Vilhelms Munters atradās , kā arī Igauņijas un Lietuvas valdību locekli).

Problēma ir vēl arī tajā, ka ‘Skujenieks’ uzvārda krievu transkripcija var būt dažāda: Cкуенек; Скуениек(с); Скуйениекс utt.

Līdzko kaut-ko atradīšu, uzreiz paziņošu.

Ar cienību,

Juris

Sveiki!

Vēlreiz paldies, Juri!  Visā sirsnībā būtu ļoti pateicīga, ja beidzot būtu konkrētas ziņas par Skujenieka nāvi.  Taču bija viņš viens no Satversmes tēviem un LV valsts dibinātājiem un cilvēks ar apbrīnojamu intelektu. (Starp citu, viņš arī bija dēls Eduardam Venskam, kas citēts un citur te LOL pieminēts.  Arī mazdēls Jurim Alunānam.)  Vēlu Tev veiksmi ar šo darbu!

Vispār, sen domāju, ka Saeimas lapu vēsturiskā nodaļā vajaga netikai patlabano sarakstu ar 201 Saeimas deputāta vārdiem kas tautu pārstāvēja Latvijas laikā, bet derētu arī viņu dzimšanas un miršanas gadi un miršanas vietas.  Būtu sapīgi to redzēt, bet vēl trakāki šķiet, ka vēl joprojam nezinam no kurienes daudzi no viņiem aizgāja aizsaulē pēc kara.

Visu labu,

Elizabete

Augusta Dēls,

You have come up with a lot of important historical information.  Thanks for sharing it here on the forum.

Visu labu,