In religions, reliable historical information is not always available, having become lost over long periods of time or not having existed in the first place. In Christianity, that is certanly true in connection with the historical existence or otherwise of Jesus. But it does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that Christianity should be abandoned as a faith of doubtful origins and validity. Why not?

According to depth psychologist C G Jung, Christ symbolizes a real content of the unconscious mind, and appeared in the world as a symbol of that deeper reality. In fact, Jung thought that it would have been better had Christ not existed as a physically real person - because in that case it would have been easier for the unconscious mind to express the constellated content (Christ) more accurately than if it had been necessary to foist it upon a physically real person.

Jung himself believed that Christ had been a minor Jewish prophet, but that much of the miraculous aspect of his life, also teaching, had its roots in the unconscious (in ‘zemapzina’). I agree with Jung, and consequently don’t see the historical existence or otherwise of Jesus as a question of great importance.

Gunars

You just can’t argue with success!  Christianity met a real need, and that need has been responsible for the spectacular spread of Christianity.  In principle, however, even a religion can be improved, or replaced by a more relevant religion.  So far, no one has succeeded yet.  Abolishment of religion is no answer - history books fail to show any successful irreligious culture or civilization.

spectator et al.,

” Abolishment of religion is no answer - history books fail to show any successful irreligious culture or civilization”

How about present day mainland China.

Almost by definition, a successful civilization is one that has a written language that is, at least, used by a segment of the populace.  Civilizations that have a writtrn language can leave a record, even if the people perish.

Visu labu,

Yes, Christianity did meet a real need, but what exactly was that need? From a teleological perspective our existence has a distant goal, the emergence of the baby out of the mother’s body being perceived by the unconscious mind as an attempt to bring forth the telos (the goal), and there is also (unique to our species) the recognition that in a sense the baby is ‘not the real thing’ - in the act of giving birth, the distant goal had not been reached. That is the ‘forbidden knowledge’ acquired by the first human mother, as set out in the myth of the Fall from Genesis.

The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) present a symbolically disguised account of the disagreeable truth, and also offer ways of correcting the error (the imperfect birth) by such symbolic devices as rebirth rituals. What, otherwise, would be the sense in becoming ‘twice born’ unless the first, natural, birth should be defective in some important sense?

Where does the above leave religions? As symbolically disguised accounts which can be clarified by uncovering the disagreeable truth, and in that sense certainly capable of further developments.

Gunars

What is the purpose of life on Earth?  Live, observe and learn!  From inside the system it can never be fully ascertained anymore than the shape of the building without leaving your apartment.  Perhaps it is the process of learning that is important, not the final knowledge as such.

From the teleological perspective, at present the goal of the life process is not kown. This is because to know it in all aspects would amount to having already reached it. All we have are religious figures of perfection, such as Christ and Buddha, which symbolize the distant goal, and that’s as far as we are capable of reaching.

Gunars

Religion is institutionalized.
Theological perspective of it is words for the sake of words.
Faith in God is all you need. The wisdom of MAN is nonsense to God.

Some understanding of the nature of teleology can be acquired by considering aim-oriented activities in the human-made world.  For example, the manufacture of watches is one such activity. The steps in the manufacturing process there are well known, and the end-product is almost always as expected. The construction of a building is another example of aim-oriented activities where the outcome is as envisaged by the architect. Unexpected ground subsidence (for example) could ruin the undertaking, but usually all goes as planned. A less certain activity, especially before the introduction of the seismic methods of exploration, is prospecting for oil, where, should it begin to look as if the well is going to be ‘dry’, the advisability of abandoning a particular drilling site would be considered. Other, unpredictable, activities included the old sea voyages of discovery, frequently associated with the search for gold, precious stones, and ‘treasure’ generally, sometimes successful but not always.

Characteristic of all the above activities is the fact that the undertaking would be abandoned should it become clear that the goal will not be reached.

When human existence is considered as part of a teleological process, then it makes much sense if it assumed that there is a distant goal, but that the agency/intelligence behind the process had concluded that a false goal had been followed, and consequently had temporarily lost interest in the human species. But, if so, how is it that we are still here? The best explanation seems to be that the devastating knowledge became repressed, the repressed knowledge finding expression in the form of religious symbolisms.

In the light of reason, it is better to be imperfect and conscious of one’s impertfection rather than exist in a state of ignorance. But such reasoning reqires some understanding of psychoanalytic concepts, particularly ‘repression’ and ‘collective complex’, both of which are now found in most dictionaries.

Gunars

gunars.berziņs et al.,

“From the teleological perspective, at present the goal of the life process is not kown”.

So why do you keep talking about teleology ?

Visu labu,

‘From a teleological perspective at present the goal of the life process is not known. So, why do I keep talking about teleology?’

The exact nature of the goal is not known, but symbolic expressions of it do exist, forming the foundations of religions. In that sense talking about teleology amounts to talking about the foundations of religions - something we certainly need, bearing in mind the diminished credibility of religions relative to what they once had. For example, if Christ is seen as symbol of a perfection towards which the entire life process is striving, then that throws new light to a number of Christianity’s characteristics. And it is no longer a question of whether Jesus ever existed as a hisorically real person or not. He symbolizes the goal, and in that sense gives meaning to what otherwise would be a meaningless existence.

Gunars

gunars.berziņs et al.,

“The exact nature of the goal is not known, but symbolic expressions of it do exist, forming the foundations of religions”.

I think this was discussed here a number of years ago when the debate was about what different people believe is on the other side of the ” locked door”. I think that was before you were   active on the forum.

Visu labu,

Gunar, what are you talking about? Have you read your own posts? They are so wordy. So full of words. They haven’t expressed any intelligable thought to me. It’s not meant as a slight, really. You have no faith do you? It’s all black and white. Only that which you can see. No?

I believe you are in ernest in your postings. But…. too much intellingencia. No emotion? No feeling? We born, we die?

Messages full of words…

‘The word shall be mightier than the sword’

Gunars

A sense of purpose imparts energy to humans.  Even a false, illusory, or even imaginary goal energizes a people to action. Materialistic doctrines, most of which foresee no goals, no teleological meaning, sap the energies of peoplem and lead to the downfall of societies.  The pursuit of pure hedonism will never build a magnificent civilization.  Consequently, fervent, purpose-minded peoples will sooner or later gain the upper hand, and suppress or even destroy secular societies that believe that life and intelligence are nothing but random events in the unfolding of our Universe.

Your recall, Bruno, of a past debate as to what different people believe is on the other side of the ‘locked door’, set me thinking in general terms about what intests me most, and it seems that ‘what’s on the other side of the locked door’ is a good answer.

After writing up my conclusions concerning the animal-to-human transition from a teleological perspective, I became interested in the temporal nature of consciousness, and after some work on the subject, joined a Yahoo discussion group about the work of the Lithuanian-born philosopher Emmanuel Levinas, introductory message at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/levinas/message/297

But after some digging in that field, I eventually returned to the animal-to-human transition scenario, which seems to be the one item that could be securely ‘brought into the light of consciousness’ - to our side of the ‘locked door’ - using the conceptual tools at present available to us.

Gunars