The deniers of the “occupation” are similar to the deniers od the “holocaust’ in that both are ignorant,stupid or both! The fact that many of the foregoing are of Russian ethnicityshould not be surprising. Although ignorance can be only skin deep, stupidity is to the bone! So why the need to enlighten those who wish to wallow in the darkness?

oresdels, I guess the question is - is it ignorance or unwillingness to admit to history?

Anita, you are much too kind in your query! Genuine historical disputes may abound , however, this is not one of them. Unwillingness in this case must be classified as “stupidity”.

ambersun - 27 May 2008 03:18 PM

“co-opted”, as ambersun would say?

Look, Andrejs, you need to get off my case.  No, I would never say “co-opted.” It is beyond offensive to suggest that I would find any defense for Arajs, his unit, and his ilk - for anyone, for that matter, joining in the mass killing of any people, including Latvians, Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, the handicapped, the old, the un-defined, the un-defended, etc.  Furthermore, it is also extremely offensive for you to suggest that members of “my family” who were deported to Siberia or killed by either the Germans or the Soviets or by the un-known soldier could have helped members of your family or anyone’s family, for that matter, of all the people I mentioned or failed to mention.  It’s amazing that as many people as actually did, risked their lives for others, even at their own peril, and maintained some small measure of humanity to extend to others while being dehumanized themselves. It’s always somebody else , some “other” “Latvian,” who didn’t save anybody who could have/should have.  Could have/should have “bombed the trains,” but bombed Dresden and Hiroshima.  How about this:  Why didn’t the Germans assasinate Hitler and why didn’t the Russians assasinate Stalin and spare all the rest of us?

Er, actually, it was me, Aleksejs, who said the line you quoted. You’ve got to keep your token Jews separated from your token russkies, you know. “Co-opted” credited to you for the ubiquitous quotation marks is a quote from the official paper posted on the Ministryof Foreign Affairs web site.... So all your rage and offense is misdirected.

ambersun - 27 May 2008 05:19 PM

About history: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2008/03/24/080324crat_atlarge_lepore

Does this cut and paste reflect your personal opinion? Or not?

Aleksejs and Andrejs,

I’d like to say that I frequently get “Tom, Dick, and Harry” mixed up but it’s just not pc or even a very good excuse.  It’s definitely a stretch to say I got Aleksejs, Andrejs, and Anita mixed up.  My fatigue from defending Latvia and Latvians against the assaults of the tag-team must have induced paranoia.  I thought Andrejs had followed me from “All About Latvia” to LOL.  I apologize, Andrejs. It certainly was intended for you but only if you had asked the question.  Aleksejs, I meant what I wrote but take only what applies to you specifically personally.

Here’s the paranoia inducing exhange from"All About Latvia:”

Andrejs Says: May 27th
Sorry, Ambersun. I am all for extending the benefit of the doubt to fellow Latvians, but if you think that the only thing that is wrong with Mr. L.L. is the lack of political correctness then you are either not paying attention or willfully ignoring the obvious. Willing to extend you my benefit of doubt, but it is rapidly depleting.

amber [to Andrejs]: May 27th
Stop riding this issue with me. It should be obvious, even to you if you were “paying attention” to ALL the issues, that Mr L L and I have many political differences. Some of his comments would be vulgar and offensive even if he had Tourette Syndrome. Since you don’t know what I think, please stop thinking that I am thinking that “the only thing that is wrong with Mr L L is the lack of political correctness. ” When I wrote that “[t]his forum requires a certain amount of politically correct restraint,” I was attempting to encourage some self-restraint and self-censure by ALL the bigots, misogynists, racists, homophobes, “Lettophobes,” equal-opportunity-offenders obliviously posting their favorite prejudices rather than checking their worst bigotry-baggage at the LOL door. No one is without baggage and some have too much. That there is still a festering “bruce” (sore) between “some Latvians” and “some Jews” should be addressed constructively and Mr L L’s comment revealed some personal “bruce” without explanation. Ask him what he meant.

I am concerned with the open and growing sore between many Latvians and many Russians. I found Mark Ames’s (?) article “Burn Baltics Burn” in “All About Latvia” (look in the archives) disgusting but informative about the raw hatred of some against Latvians (Balts). There are many issues of misunderstanding and hatred that need to be addressed.

You still haven’t answered me why you, as a Latvian who lived under Soviet occupation and as a Jew who fled to Israel because of Soviet persecution, would “understand” the “Soviet nostalgia” displayed at the May 9 “Victory Day Celebration” in Riga?

(Andrejs had written: I have not problem with Russians [in Latvia] celebrating Victory Day.  I don’t particularly have a problem with Soviet nostalgia and Russian patriotism either. http://allaboutlatvi.comarticle/632/more-thoughts-on-victory-day/#comments

Aleksejs, I share articles I find interesting and relevant and take responsibility for what I write. Just like Peteris, at times I get my hackles raised.

My fatigue from defending Latvia and Latvians...

Been breeding horses, or?

Lieb’ Vaterland, magst ruhig sein...

/P

Glad to see you have your Russians and Jews now straightened out. Sad to hear that, of course, its our fault you got us mixed up in the first place. As a token Jew I am used to things being my fault. Since your link failed here’s my post in its entirety. And if after reading it again you still don’t understand what I meant by: I have not problem with Russians [in Latvia] celebrating Victory Day.  I don’t particularly have a problem with Soviet nostalgia and Russian patriotism either. and see it as somehow a validation of Russia and Russians and a negation of Latvians and Latvia, then sorry. Can’t help you. Kind of pressed for time and cutting and pasting is all I have the time for.

Andrejs

P.S.
For the record the below exchange is between me and another member of the alleged tag-team, so it kind of defeats the idea and purpose of a tag-team? Or maybe again I am reading something into Ambersun’s words that she didn’t intend?
P.P.S.
I will stipulate for the record that Ambersun rejects all forms of prejudice, bigotry, racism, etc., etc.

And now back to work.

Andrejs Says:

May 12th, 2008 at 19.39
I have no problem with Russians celebrating Victory Day. I don’t particularly have a problem with Soviet nostalgia and Russian patriotism either. I just have a hard time understanding why you seem to think that these should be important to Latvians? I don’t want to keep harping on this point, but Victory Day doesn’t seem to be about the Defeat of Germany as much as about the Victory of Russia. I haven’t been to a Victory Day in many, many years, so I don’t know how people choose to celebrate, but I read your account of it.

I couldn’t understand the ubiquitousness of the Russian flags. At any time, you’d expect the Russian national anthem blast through the speakers. The organizers should have thought to promote a healthy patriotism toward the country they find their homes, Latvia, but I suspect any Latvian national anthem would have been greeted with boos from the large crowd and give more work to the police.

The anger at this country, at the apathy of the government, at prevalent corruption and theft, and – frighteningly of all – hatred toward everything Latvian is enormous. For them, the anger trumps over any other emotion. Perhaps, this anger at callous, flippant attitude of the authorities toward those who fought on the “wrong side” – politically speaking – during the war drives many, many people to remember this Victory Day by laying tulips at the feet of the monument.

I know you keep asking that politics are left out of it, but I don’t see how they can. Victory Day is already politicized. And for the most part that politicizing has been done by Russians and Russia. As Peteris alluded to earlier, Victory Day is in many ways a celebration of the myths of Russia’s Victory.
The war started in 1939.
Russia didn’t single handedly beat Germany. Many nations played a role in the defeat of Germany. Some would even argue that those other nations, individually or as a group, played a far larger role.
Russia’s victory came at an incredible cost, but much of that cost was due to Soviet ineptitude and corruption. Ill equiped troops and ineffective officers.
Anyway, the point is not to minimize Russia’s role, but just pointing out that there’s much myth in Victory Day. Again, not that there’s much wrong with that. Myth is a part of many a nation’s proudest moments. Its just that I can’t see why Russian mythology should be embraced by Latvian. Not if you also believe that: The end of the war signifies the beginning of peace. The end of that War did not signify the beginning of peace for many nations. Every inch of ground which the Soviets won they kept for nearly 50 years. So forgive us if some of us have a hard time seeing Victory day as a defeat of Germany when for us it actually signifies the beginning of Soviet conquest.
I think Latvia’s Russians have some valid gripes against Latvia’s government and the Latvian people. But, sorry, this just isn’t one of them. Not even close.
I think the respective reactions illustrate the wide gulf between the two people, but to bridge that gulf we must first define what we are trying to bridge. Define the center. And if you define the center as a celebration of Victory Day as it was celebrated last week then there isn’t a bridge wide or long enough.

courlander et al.,
“The bombing of Dresden was a retaliation for the bombing of Cambridge and the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was to speed up the end of the war for all indications were ............”

And the bombing of Cambridge and London was in retaliation for the bombing of Berlin.
Visu labu,