To my brother in the Illuminati (weakest member)

Maybe its my nature as the token Lugan participant here - but looking at the Tibet question politically - I really cant find many parallels with the Baltic experience with soviet occupation.

Can someone tell me which country currently doesnt recognize Chinas sovereignty over Tibet ?

When was Tibet recognized as an independent nation ? When was Tibet occupied ?

I’ve always been keen on the early 20th century European concept of democratic self determination - but there was some history behind it. Tibetans were/are nomadic - what is Tibet then ? What will Tibet be is probably the better question.

India also claims part of Tibet - wheres the outrage ? Naan boycott anyone ?

The Olympics should not fall victim to cheap political shots at the broadside of emerging powers. This Olympic display strikes me as an effort to embarrass China because there isnt a solid political platform that the Tibet question can be presented on.

I feel badly for what is happening in Tibet - dont get me wrong. But there needs to be something more than just “Free Tibet” slogans in this fight if there’s any dream that it may be effective.

As for Lucas - I’d be more inclined to read how he leverages the plight of the Irish, Scots, Welsh, etc against their perceived captors than how he plays the Baltics against a question of sovereignty on another continent.

Good Morning Ambersunīt, Vidai, et al.,

The point of starting this thread was to collect what is going on, especially for those who live in Latvia and want to do something. The Baltic press has not been silent—the very first post includes a link to an article in Latvijas Avīze about an Estonian demonstration. My friend Jānis Ziemelis has been working hard and selflessly to get the media to focus on the subject and develop a protest movement. There’s an interview with him in today’s Diena. Those of you who draugojaties can join the group ”Tibetas neatkarībai” to keep up to date with plans and help plan.

The tentative dates for the showing of the documentaries is the 7th and the 9th, at the alterno place on Andrejsala. Lucas’ article was picked up by LETA. If you read my “Rite of Spring” post, you’d have noticed that I linked to a paper by Reinis Norkārkls entitled “Tibeta – tās problēmas vēsturiskā izcelšanās, rezonanse starptautiskajā sabiedrībā un Latvijas – Tibetas saikne”; Reinis is from Daugavpils and wrote that when he was still in high school—the Subcommandante [sic] was kind enough to post it on his site seven years ago. My interest in the issue is not recent or sudden, and I wasn’t “clucking.”

The Dalai Lama has been to Latvia, and if you really did follow the Baltic press you would know that there’s considerable interest in Tibet here; Rīgas Laiks and Uldis Tīrons have been among those at the forefront of this. Here’s an article by Tīrons from 1999. It’s quite a bit more explicit and in-depth than Lucas’ article. Quote from H.H. the Dalai Lama: “Paldies jums. Latvija! Es augstu [sic] vērtēju cilvēkus no Latvijas. Jūsu tautai un manai tautai bijusi līdzīga pieredze. Kad es biju Latvijā, es redzēju daudz krievu. Mums ir līdzīga problēma - ļoti daudz ķīniešu. Arī mums jāatrod veids, kā šo problēmu risināt.”

Vidai, the Baltic states weren’t recognized when we first declared independence, either. Of course there are a lot of differences, and recognition is one of them. But comparisons to the Scots and the Welsh are silly—Scotland and Wales have their own Parliaments, and the UK is not totalitarian (Northern Ireland has a difficult peace process that is making progress by fits and starts, with representation and dialogue). If Scotland does vote to leave, I’m sure that Britain would say toodles in a civilized manner. The Dalai Lama is not asking for independence—he, and his government-in-exile, are asking for the autonomy China agreed to. Here is a summary of Tibet’s status, with copious links. Juris Sinka—who was the sort of politician who was willing to talk to a high school student at length, when Reinis wrote the paper I linked to above—was an active supporter of both Tibet and Chechnya (he died in Tibet, in fact). In neither case are there parallels with regard to recognition—the main parallel is that of a small nation and different culture being steamrolled by a larger one, and the right of self-determination is more important than the recognition issue.

As to “embarrassing China”—that’s like worrying about embarrassing Nazi Germany in 1936, or—as in the Lucas parallel—Moscow in 1980. The Olympics should never have been given to Beijing; it’s not only Tibet that suffers under its misrule. The Olympics can be used for leverage now, though. As to the importance of symbolic acts, here is Timothy Garton Ash’s view.

Re India—it’s a democracy, and though the situation of the Tibetans there is harsh, it does at least host the government-in-exile. To point at another place is kind of a corollary to the typical Russian tu quoque—or the tendency of pseudo-leftists in the West to tie any Western crime into an argument (Burma? But what about Iraq! Chechnya? America slaughtered the Injuns!). I’m talking about Tibet and China here. My reaction to what Andrejs described as Ambersun’s “strong left hook” is similar: Zatlers can’t even press Russia on the occupation issue but it’s more important that he stand strong for Tibet against China? Latvia is free—the occupation is history. Our statesmen (and stateswymmin) love to talk about how we learned from our oppression when it comes to “liberating” Iraq, recognizing Kosovo, or supporting Georgia (i.e., toeing the American line). When it comes to standing up for freedom in Central Asia or China, we’re more interested in the so-called New Silk Road and filthy lucre.

Regards,
/P

P.S. Here’s a view by Yelena Staburova. Hmm. Unless the article is terribly distorted, I don’t know what to say.

P.S. Here is an example of a press release from the Chinese Embassy in Rīga. As Timothy Garton Ash points out, this type of lying sūds is a “throwback to the worst Stalinist demagogy, this statement is not merely at odds with, but the diametric opposite of, the truth, making black out of white.” That’s where there’s a significant parallel, Vidai—a genocidal, totalitarian empire imposing its will upon a small nation. As to the comments of Mrs. Bērziņš—the pose ought to be familiar to any Balt. It’s like H.E. Kalyuzhny emerging from the Occupation Museum—“but they don’t mention that we built their factories”!

/P

P.P.S. “Growing Gulf Divides China and Dalai Lama”

/P

Re the olympics, I wouldn’t boycott the games because it’s unfair to the athletes but I agree with Peteris: “The Olympics should never have been given to Beijing”. Aside from the human rights, there’s the pollution, last I heard the Ethiopian legend Haile Gebrselassie was pulling out of the marathon due to this.

Vidas brought up Wales… how would this go over in China?

/P

Latvia last, as always? I guess now that Berlin has spoken, our statesmen will consider saying they were misunderstood. Or maybe go in greater style—send more Chinese rail cars this way, please?

“Merkel says she will not attend opening of Beijing Olympics”

/P

Quoth Sunny Bernstein:

ambersun - 28 March 2008 09:26 AM

I’ve yet to read a single article by a “Latvian Edward Lucas” linking Tibet/Latvia.

There was an Oxford-educated gentleman at the BBC named Juris Sinka who made the connection.  I do recall having read an article or two in the newspaper “Brīvā Latvija” during his term as Editor-In-Chief linking the Baltics and Tibet.  He was elected to the Saeima, and was a champion of Tibetan independence. 

In 2001, he was part of a delegation of Latvian parliamentarians invited to tour China by the Chinese Institute of Foreign Affairs, a trip he would never return from.  According to reports, Mr. Sinka fell ill on arriving in Lhasa on April 2nd and passed away the following day.  The cause of death was listed as a heart attack.  He was 74 years old.  Just prior to the team’s departure for Beijing, Juris Sinka met the representatives of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Sinka had told them that he accepted the invitation to visit China only on the condition that he be permitted to visit Tibet.  He had intended to make a formal report about this visit to the Dalai Lama.

I suppose that in the seven years since his passing, Juris Sinka’s words have fallen on deaf ears and are largely forgotten.  I do recall Pēteris Cedriņš once had a video of Juris Sinka and the Tibet “Atbalstu grupa,” on his site somewhere.  Perhaps we can impose upon him to dig it up.

If anyone is interested, here is a video, purportedly from a demonstration in front of the Chinese embassy in Rīga.

/R

p.s. and here is something Doctor Zed had to say.

“Vidai, the Baltic states weren’t recognized when we first declared independence, either.”

Not immediately - but they were recognized. So who recognizes Tibet and by what borders ?

“Of course there are a lot of differences, and recognition is one of them. But comparisons to the Scots and the Welsh are silly—Scotland and Wales have their own Parliaments, and the UK is not totalitarian...”

I like to read Lucas. His arguments are well presented - but my comment on the status of Ireland, Wales and Scotland was in response to Lucas’ tendency to throw the Baltics in front of his arguments.

Lucas isnt a Balt. He’s a Brit. Let the Brits clean their own house before Lucas takes an opportunity to offer the Baltics up for sake of argument with Russia.

“As to “embarrassing China”—that’s like worrying about embarrassing Nazi Germany in 1936, or—as in the Lucas parallel—Moscow in 1980.”

I wasnt alive in 1936 to get a sense of the condition then - nor were you. Dont be tossin that era around Kurlander-style.

Moscow 1980 is another story. Comparing Moscow 1980 with China today is a stretch to say the least. How many elemental differences would you like to cover ?

“The Olympics should never have been given to Beijing; it’s not only Tibet that suffers under its misrule. The Olympics can be used for leverage now, though.”

The Olympics were awarded to Beijing - end of story.. The leverage you may want to use is somewhat trivial now as the battle was lost some number of years ago when the games were awarded. Proclaiming there’s a focus now doesnt work. Was Tibet less important before ?

“Re India—it’s a democracy, and though the situation of the Tibetans there is harsh, it does at least host the government-in-exile. To point at another place is kind of a corollary to the typical Russian tu quoque—or the tendency of pseudo-leftists in the West to tie any Western crime into an argument (Burma? But what about Iraq! Chechnya? America slaughtered the Injuns!).”

Very kind of India to host the Tibetans in exile. The land the Tibetans claim is Indias today by legal definition nonetheless. Strikes me as less than half measures visavis equity.

I have no issue with Tibet really. As I posted before - I fully respect the idea of self determination. Where I disagree here is with those who would like to offer the Baltic 20th century experience as a recipe for success regardless of specifics. Tibet aint Latvia and China isnt the soviet union by their respective longshots.

Labas rytas, Vidai!

Not immediately - but they were recognized. So who recognizes Tibet and by what borders?

As I said, there aren’t parallels in terms of international recognition—but recognition is not all there is, and even for the Baltics it wasn’t and isn’t as clear as some would pretend (we weren’t allowed to pay our League of Nations dues, for example, and as far as borders go—none of our partners stepped forward to say that Abrene is ours [quite the opposite, actually—we were leaned on to drop the issue from the very beginning]). Though the policy of non-recognition most Western countries followed was important, in many respects it was merely formal; the restoration of diplomatic relations wasn’t instantaneous.

The Dalai Lama isn’t asking for independence. This is his position, in his words:

As far as the future is concerned, look at the European Union. In the past centuries, those nations talked most about their sovereignty. Now, today, the common interest is more important than each individual nation’s sovereignty. Tibet is a landlocked country, a large area, small population, very, very backward. We Tibetans want modernization. Therefore, in order to develop Tibet materially as a modern nation, Tibet must remain within the People’s Republic of China. Provided Chinese give us a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetan culture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality, then it is of mutual benefit. [Besides] foreign affairs [and] defense [are] all the things which Tibetans can manage by themselves. Tibetans should have the full autonomy.

“Dalai Lama: Tibet Wants Autonomy, Not Independence”

You can better compare the Baltics prior to 1918—the slogan of the Riflemen, for example, was “a free Latvia in a free Russia.”

Lucas isnt a Balt. He’s a Brit. Let the Brits clean their own house before Lucas takes an opportunity to offer the Baltics up for sake of argument with Russia.

That makes no sense at all. He’s the Central and Eastern European correspondent of a European publication. He speaks German, Russian, Polish, Lithuanian and Czech. He has considerable experience in the Baltics.

If the Chinese house were a hundredth as clean as Britain’s, the problem would be a hundredth the size; like I said, Britain doesn’t hold on to its components by force, except in Northern Ireland. Even there, a majority wants to be part of the UK—and Northern Ireland has home rule. Most of Ireland is independent. Britain, N.I., and the Republic of Ireland agreed that the status will not change unless a majority of the people want it to change, and a plebiscite was held in 1973. The nationalists boycotted the plebiscite, but turnout was nonetheless 58,1%, 98,9% voting to stay in the UK. Another plebiscite may be held soon. Nationalists are represented at Stormont and in Westminster. Even Sinn Féin has MPs, though it’s considered a front for the IRA (kind of puts the lie to the “we don’t talk to terrorists” policy some espouse—sitting down and talking is how the situation got better). Scotland? Like I said, it has its own Parliament. The SNP, which openly and vociferously advocates full independence, holds more seats than any other party.

I don’t see any plebiscites in Tibet’s near future. The Welsh woman I linked to in an earlier post can actively advocate full independence for Wales. Politicians advocating the breakup of the UK have free reign to do so. The Tibetans aren’t even asking for independence—but even having the Dalai Lama’s picture can get you a stint in a nice resort, making toys for Wal-Mart.

I wasnt alive in 1936 to get a sense of the condition then - nor were you. Dont be tossin that era around Kurlander-style.

I will again totally disagree with you, Vidai, and I’ve always argued the opposite. That’s like the “you never met the Vadonis so shaddap” argument. There was a debate about a boycott in 1936, by the way.

As in my argument re “you never lived in the glorious ulmaņlaiki”—the thing is that one always experiences only a segment of one’s place and era. A soldier does not see the battle, a general often does not see the war, a politician does not necessarily see diplomacy, etc.—and we reņģēdāji really see very little.

That’s part of why we have books. Sure, we’re blessed with (and can be damned by) hindsight, often as faulty as any other sight. But looking back teaches us a lot of things. It’s not mistaken to respect Cassandras in retrospect.

Was William Shirer the Edward Lucas of his day? He felt like a voice in the wilderness when talking about the Nazis, especially when talking to Americans. Churchill, when appeasement was all the rage?

Or maybe Shirer should have shut up and cleaned his own house?

Or Kennan—the architect of Cold War One?

When I read about the rise of anti-Semitism in Latvia that accompanied Jewish attempts to boycott Nazi Germany—our main trading partner back then—I feel sick to my stomach.

Moscow 1980 is another story. Comparing Moscow 1980 with China today is a stretch to say the least. How many elemental differences would you like to cover?

We can cover them, if you like. But the reason Lucas made the comparison is the similarity, not the differences. Dog bites girl’s left ankle, she drops her ice cream, cries. Chupacabra bites boy’s right thigh, he drops his Popsicle, cries. We can discuss the serious gap between canines and the dreaded chupacabra, Popsicles and ice cream, boys and girls, etc.—or we can focus upon the psychological effects of dropping tasty cold things upon children.

[To be cont’d.]

[Cont’d.]

You made me remember talking to David Harrison, a British diplomat and an expert on Europe, esp. the market dimension, about Chechnya/Ichkeria, back in 1996. I stressed the Baltic parallels—he stressed the differences, esp. the recognition issue. Roberts and I had a vehement argument re Ichkeria also, long ago, in this forum—Roberts stressed Chechen terrorism and the dangers of Islamism, and I stressed the right of self-determination and the work of the same Juris Sinka being talked about above—a man who felt a moral imperative, as a Latvian, to support the self-determination of small nations, esp. those peoples struggling against gigantic post-Red empires.

Vytautas Landsbergis wanted Lithuania to be the second state to recognize Ichkeria. We all remember Iceland. I think it is perfectly natural for Balts to feel a strong sympathy for and obligation to small nations, esp. those that struggle against totalitarian regimes. I’m not ashamed of that, and I don’t claim to know much about China or Tibet. But I do see similarities—they’re the similarities that still echo around our own countries. The brotherly Great Russian people brought us electrification and plumbing! Medieval nationalism is so very passé! Those nomads (or peasants, or tribalists, or whatever) dare to think they can rule themselves!

I’m not suggesting that we make decisions with jerking knees, seeing every situation as the same. Some peoples really do have Russia to thank for literacy and flush toilets, perhaps. But the Irish song I posted once before is something any Latvian can identify with:

Oh, I’ll tell you a tale of peace and love (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)
Of a land that reigns all lands above (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

May peace and plenty be her share
Who kept our homes from want and care
Oh, God bless England is our prayer (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

Chorus:
Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day
So we say “hip hooray”
Come and listen while we pray
Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day

Now our fathers oft were naughty boys (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)
For pikes and guns are dangerous toys (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

At Ballinahabwee and at Bunker’s hill
We made poor England cry her fill
But old Brittania loves us still (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

Chorus

Now, when we were savage, fierce and wild (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)
She came as a mother to her child (Whack fol the diddle o the dee do day)

She gently raised us from the slime
And kept our hands from hellish crime
And she sent us to heaven in our own good time (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

Chorus

Well, now Irish men forget the past (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)
And think of the day that’s coming fast (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

When we shall all be civilized
Neat and clean and well advised
Oh, won’t mother England be surprised? (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

(Peadar Kearney?)

With all our failings, I think Mother Russia’s surprise at how neat and clean and well advised we are, comparatively, is one of the main psychological motives for the current hatred. To look at Estonia from the Great Bardak is painful. We are not grateful to Russia.

Nowhere am I saying that just having a lust for freedom is enough. Sinka worked with parliamentarians from these unrecognized regions/nation-states. I do think that this lust is absolutely essential to nationhood, and it is something we do and should know about, and it is something we should be at the forefront of internationally. Bubba can say “how many countries can we have” when dissing Québec—but the answer is that it’s a limitless number. We’re all interdependent, and we have structures that we can voluntarily enter and nurture. 

The lust for freedom is a level we can relate to—I remember talking to a Kurdish schoolteacher at length, in northern Syria, about how we feel. When we went on to Damascus, he said “I feel there as you might in Moscow.”

Nobody recognizes Kurdistan, Vidai.

Geriausio,
/P

P.S. By the way, I suppose that your being Lithuanian does make a big difference in this argument—you have a glorious history (that ethnic Lithuanians distorted and usurped, in great degree). We were a people without a history.

/P

The IHT has an interesting article on this issue looking at it from the Chinese nationalism angle
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/30/asia/china.php?page=1
You can’t replace “China” and “Tibet” with “the glorious Rodina” and “Latvija” in every instance, but there are some quotes from nationalists that are striking in their similarities to the crap spewed toward Latviesi and Baltiesi. Cedrins highlighted some of these same issues, poigniantly with the Irish song, and as it was with the wallowing in the mud Balts and the Rodina pulling them to it’s vodka and blood soaked bosom, it is freakishly startling to hear how one nationality (Han Chinese) sees another (Tibetans) and recognize the echoes of this from the Baltics struggle to maintain ethnic identity, self-awareness, and yes independence.

author="Peteris Cedrins” date="1206887036"][Cont’d.]

At Ballinahabwee and at Bunker’s hill
We made poor England cry her fill
But old Brittania loves us still (Whack fol the diddle o dee die do day)

“Venit et extremis legio praeterna Britannis, Quae Scotto dat frena truci ferronque notatas Perlegit examines Picto moriente figuras”

“This legion has constrained the wild Scoth in Britain and studied figures, made by iron on the face of a dying Pict”. (c).

Claudian.

Best Regards,

Juris

Think about Tibet as Latvia, with very tall mountains. Latvia was once the westernmost Soviet republic, although it had little in common with Russia. The language, the religion, the literature, the food, the society were all quite different. Latvia had been oriented to the west and to Europe over much of its long history. Yet Latvia came under Russian control during the 19th century. After the Russian revolution of 1917, it gained independence in 1921, only to fall to Stalin in 1940. After fifty years of Soviet domination, the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia regained its independence in 1991.

“How to think about Tibet”