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Peteris Cedrins
Posted: 14 March 2008 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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I’ll ignore Ambersun’s disturbing agreement (made me check the blankets for fascist fleas and such, several times [tongue]) to say that I don’t see the space that is offered to those who aren’t Latvian (cittautieši, whatever) as having much breathing room. And that is where ethnic nationalism gets dangerous—it doesn’t even have room for Latgallians, let alone Latvijas krievi.

That’s what’s horrible, in my view. Not that it’s not understandable. To operate as a defensive minority after you get a supposedly modern nation-state to run is just gritty and grotty, esp. when the main minority is not a real minority. I’ll even risk offending my friend Aleksei to say he’s not an Old Believer at all—there’s nothing in him that I’ve seen that testified to those roots, and he could just as well claim to be “Latvian” per the paternal line. But that goes for many (ethnic) Latvians, too—worse, many Latvians, those who are the most rootless, accentuate the Latvianness they lack. And what is there in that? Conviction? Or skinheads after too much glue?

Stalšāns paints a very different picture of the Old Believers than Elizabete does—they welcomed the invasion in Naujene… “they may be Bolsheviks, but at least they’re ours” is the notorious phrase. Meaning—at least they speak Russian. According to him, they were easily led—as most illiterates are. They were so violent towards Latvians once Soviet rule set in that even the Party had to step in.

The Mennonites never experienced a German occupation of America. The Old Believers lived here during Russian ascendancy (in various phases)—reports about how they behaved towards the Polish nobles who granted them refuge are mixed, to put it mildly. Later, it is quite true that many Old Believers became and remain supporters of the Latvian Republic (many did not and are not)—but a rich, urban Old Believer in the Grebenshchikov congregation vs. a poor Latgallian Old Believer vs. an utterly Sovietized descendant, or a dreaded “cosmopolitan”?

There are nearly as many Poles in Daugavpils as there are Latvians, by ethnicity—but most Poles were Russified. The self-identification is one thing. It often matters—like Old Believers, Poles were supportive of independence… as a group. But they continue to be Russified even now. If I’m a Pole but know no Polish, am I a Pole? How does that play out in our identity politics? To play with the genetic markers—like, as Germans say of the Wolgadeutsche: I’m a German ‘cause my great-grandfather once owned a German Shepherd?

The same goes for the Jewish identity in Latvia today. Most of Latvia’s Jews have no connection to Latvian Jews—they’re Soviet immigrants. At least until recently, the Jewish school was a Russian school for self-identified Jews, few of them practicing Jews.

The new EU Latvian passports don’t put the optional ethnicity line on the next page but right there, en face.

Russians claim roots here all of the time—that is a main slogan of Zhdanok’s young droogs, for instance, who carry signs like this. They took to carrying signs saying just “40%” for a time, meaning that in their view, 40% have roots here; they are 40% of the population. Besides the exaggeration of the percentage—it’s a boldfaced lie. It’s, like—maybe a third of the people of Aleppo are Christian… so if you were to move to Aleppo, you’d add a person to the percentage. And the exaggeration of the percentage is based upon the idea that everybody not Latvian is a Russian.

There are certainly many Russians with roots here. But—what grew from them?  I’ve cited the actual stats many a time—most were here in Latgola, and most of those were rural Old Believers. Their total percentage was __%?

Aleks says it’s increasingly hard to tell who is who—that’s probably true. But part of that is that nobody was anybody during the occupation, as a rule. In the areas that were settled by Old Believers or colonized in the 19th C, it’s not so hard to tell; villages know everything. But that part of the population is not very large. In the cities—does it matter?

Interestingly, an objection I read in the Russian press (and unlike Ambersun I would distinguish between the Russian press and the Russian-language press in Latvia) to Latvia’s definition of what minorities are in terms of the Framework Convention was that Old Believers are already “assimilated.” This must be one of those confusions of definition.

Vysu lobu,
/P

[ Edited: 14 March 2008 01:31 PM by Peteris Cedrins]
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ambersun
Posted: 14 March 2008 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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Anita wrote: “Actually, I think you agree with what you think Peteris said, not what he said.”

Actually, Anita, in my world it’s considered neither polite nor politically correct to correct another’s thinking (if that’s even possible outside of Lubyanka or the corner house).  We usually ask what the person was really thinking if our own thinking is subject to unclear thinking before we think to put our thoughts in another’s head.  Your biggest concern should be what you think not worrying about what you think I think.  Thank you, but no thank you, I have gotten along just fine without your thinking for me or your generous voluntarism to correct what you think is my thinking.  May I suggest that you just correct your own thinking so that it thinks what I actually thought.  May I also suggest that you expose some of your original thinking to the light of LOL-scrutiny and risk the PC (Peteris Cedrins) correction of your thinking by our PC kungs, as has already happened to many others. Unless you just rather have Peteris think for you.

What do you think Peteris said?

PS Peteris: 
As above, may I suggest that you just correct your own thinking so that it thinks what I actually thought.

I agree with your two posts but it doesn’t make us political soulmates since I would never ever consider voting for a Republican or John McCain.  Ironically, that puts you way far right of me, and I suspect that’s not the only instance of that - but who cares - except labeling, libeling you and your (faux PC) choir.  How does that feel - that some may now think you aligned with not only McCain but with virtually Atilla the Hun?  - For someone who dances so nimbly from right to left and back as he taimauts well pleases but has an unwavering need to define, limit, and pigeonhole another’s political space - and trains his fellow travellers to follow the Piper.  Peteris supporting war-mongering neo-cons; privileged-white-male-capitalists; gay-intolerant religious-fundamentalist; forest-clearing, Alaska-oil-drilling anti-environmentalist; universal health insurance doomsayers; etc.  Here’s the up side, Peteris, you probably have come into a whole new world of LOL friends and your old PC friends probably won’t leave you.  Your political-playing is without a discernible leitmotif and harshly cacophonous - you’re just lucky that your loyal choir is usually tone-deaf. 

I was just saying that I appreciated hearing Chopin amidst all that heavy metal.

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Peteris Cedrins
Posted: 14 March 2008 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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No Chopin.

/P

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ambersun
Posted: 14 March 2008 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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Peteris wrote:
I’ll ignore Ambersun’s disturbing agreement (made me check the blankets for fascist fleas and such, several times [tongue]) to say that I don’t see the space that is offered to those who aren’t Latvian (cittautieši, whatever) as having much breathing room. And that is where ethnic nationalism gets dangerous—it doesn’t even have room for Latgallians, let alone Latvijas krievi.

Peteris, I’ll ignore your desperate (fascist fleas ?) attempt to distance yourself not from me but from your own identity demons - Latvian or whatever.  I don’t know who has you by the balls but it’s got to hurt.  Save the “fascist” name-calling for your little-boys playpen.  Don’t forget that in a couple of days, people will be indiscriminately hurling “fascist” as an insult at you and your senci.  Maybe it will mean more to you when you hear “your momma.” Maybe you need to read about “Latvian fascists” (wasn’t your father in the Legion?) marching to Brivibas Piemineklis in The New York Times on Monday to curb your tongue.

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Wahabist
Posted: 14 March 2008 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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Peteris, I’ll ignore your desperate (fascist fleas ?) attempt to distance yourself not from me but from your own identity demons - Latvian or whatever.

Curious. Ridiculous, but curious anyway. Ambersun, where are you posting from anonymously anyway and why ?

“I don’t know who has you by the balls but it’s got to hurt.  Save the “fascist” name-calling for your little-boys playpen.”

There’s a Lithuanian saying regarding the soviet period - and the German occupation also - regarding this:

Uz kam tu tarnauji ?

Who are you working for basically. The premise being that people cant have an independent opinion as the concept is anathema to the fascist or soviet view of control. Your claiming that Peteris is under someone elses control, ie someone “has you by the balls” puts you on the bad side of the division. Small nation - held by the balls. Large nations do the holding. Maybe you’re playing the US role of nation control - but even the US isnt quite as wacky as your geopolitik seems to want to wish it to be.

Don’t forget that in a couple of days, people will be indiscriminately hurling “fascist” as an insult at you and your senci.  Maybe it will mean more to you when you hear “your momma.” Maybe you need to read about “Latvian fascists” (wasn’t your father in the Legion?) marching to Brivibas Piemineklis in The New York Times on Monday to curb your tongue.

Ah. Attacking parents. The signature move of a true Balt patriot. I’ve heard the same things about my parents and grandparents. I know that music.

It’s driven by jealousy. It’s certainly a sickness.

Vidas

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ambersun
Posted: 14 March 2008 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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Wahabist, Peteris is a big boy and can speak for himself. 

PS Instead of explaining Peteris why don’t you just spend your time translating what Peteris actually said in his interview in Bernardinai.lt (20080307)?  Ko lietuviams pavydi broliai latviai (What about Lithuanians makes our Latvian brothers jealous) I think “fewer ethnic minorities” in Lithuania was one of them.

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Wahabist
Posted: 14 March 2008 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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Very simple Ambersun. It would serve zero purpose for me to translate it for you.

Do you honestly believe the substance of his interview would jive with your thoroughly f’ed up worldview ?

Peteris’ article had a strong positive response on Bernardinai (a conservative Catholic publication I might add). In subsequent days - Lithuanian press and TV programs continued the discussion on how a positive Lithuanian Latvian relationship could benefit both. How do both nations take advantage of this was the essence of it.

Oh, but thats trivial bullsh*t given your marginal days of attack posts on the internet Ambersun . There are just way too many rooskies for you to assault anonymously. Latvia is too far away to trouble you.

Peteris is published regularly in a variety of publications - as is Aleks. In several languages even.

You’re relegated to being an anonymous bombastic curiosity on LOL . Entertainment really. Forget how the crowds may consider Peteris and his dad and mom. How would you think they’d consider you ?

Not an issue for you though is it.

Vidas

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Aleksejs
Posted: 15 March 2008 12:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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ambersun, hi, I’m Aleks. What’s your name?

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ambersun
Posted: 15 March 2008 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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Aleksejs,
I’ll introduce myself to you when I arrive in Latvia draped in the Latvian flag and singing Dievs Sveti Latviju.  You’ll have no trouble recognizing me since I’ll be wearing a tautas terps, dancing sudmalinas, and desperately in Latvian asking everyone around me speaking Russian which is the way to the Museum of the Occupation of Latvia.
Uz redzesanos driz Latvija!

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Aleksejs
Posted: 15 March 2008 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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But how will I know you? At the airport, all I see are people wearing tautas terps and perpetually singing Dievs Sveti Latviju. In fact, it’s become a requirement before you can disembark off the plane. That’s how the immigration service keeps this country free of unwanted elements. Russians, though, buy their way in…

But I’ll hold you to a meeting…

[ Edited: 15 March 2008 12:09 PM by Aleksejs]
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ambersun
Posted: 15 March 2008 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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Yes, Aleksejs, I am in total (:) agreement with you.  “At the airport, all I see are people wearing tautas terps and perpetually singing Dievs Sveti Latviju. In fact, it’s become a requirement before you can disembark off the plane. That’s how the immigration service keeps this country free of unwanted elements. Russians, though, buy their way in… “ Just one small objection: I don’t know that I’ve ever seen the British men arriving at Riga’s airport wearing pastalinas, yes, linen shirts sometimes, and, certainly almost always, singing with gusto, “ kur latvju meitas zied.”

PS I’m already taking my tautas terps out of mothballs.

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Juris Kazha
Posted: 15 March 2008 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]  
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Ambersun,
You are seriously moving here from, like, California????  To 20 % inflation, a corrupt, often incompetant bureaucracy, a HUTA government (head up the ...you get it), scruffy, mean, depressed. clueless looking people on the streets (I am not the only one seeing this, others notice the same), 9 AM drunks, reckless driving, ridiculously overpriced housing compared to, say, Stockholm, public transport where some crazed bitch conductor tosses a 10-year old girl into the street because she had no change or something, drunk mail carriers who ask someone else to deliver the mail and the substitute, also shit-faced, is caught by the neighborhood kids tossing hundreds of letters into a trash container. The list could go on.

Why?

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Aleksejs
Posted: 15 March 2008 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]  
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It must be love, love, love.... Besides, you’re ruining the picture of the ideal latviska Latvia for our tautas-terped friend.

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Aleksejs
Posted: 15 March 2008 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]  
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Incidentally, Juris, you don’t speak any Russian. Have you had troubles in our capital city and Carnikava?

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JKS
Posted: 15 March 2008 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]  
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9 am drunks? Oh well, at least they have the self-discipline to get up. Here in the UK they’d be in bed until the afternoon.

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