(… continued)

Following up on my spirited rhyme, “Jesus loves us that we know, Ikabods Ozols tells us so! … This is supposed to lift one’s spirits above gloom and doom?” Ika nods in approval and based on his first hand reading experience he iterates: “There is no gloom and doom for believers in Jesus Christ. There is joy unspeakable.” Unspeakable! Amen.

I wonder if Ika can get beyond that a notch or two, as that’s the line we were given by communists and nazis as they showed movies of happy children dancing around the maypole and eating all the delicious food they could want to eat. Sounds like bits and pieces from the old propaganda machine. Of course Ika, would not know about that, as he refuses the joy of reading history.

Today Latvia is listed 7th in the world with 99.7% literacy rate that is considerably up from less than a fraction of 1% back in the days when Christianity was forced on Latvians. It was easy to be duped in the by-gone days and there was little choice. The rest is indoctrination from generation to generation starting in the 18th century. Today Latvians can make up their own mind and even read between the lines.

~*~

What Ika is saying here is that he does not give a hoot about the history of the Holocaust in Latvia. He already knows-it all: “Ok, the next few paragraphs were uninteresting, and it seems -Ivars wants a bit of revisionist history regarding the holocaust and Latvian participation in it. What’s the name of that death camp just out Riga Ivars?”

Keeping a closed mind on the Holocaust, especially when you are ignorant of the history and the events does not endear you with the readers on LOL who for the most part are familiar with the Holocaust matter in Latvia. You are too transparent and have no credibility at this juncture. Regretfully it is difficult for some people to study and comprehend history.

~*~

My original comment: “Double-talk is a simple way on describing Ika’s position on judgmental factor and condemnation (post # 3) aspects that turns him off, yet judgmentalism and condemnation are the basis of his most common simple-minded approach to dismiss everything that does not align with his limited worldview. As to his worldview, he has yet to make an argument that goes beyond his rants “faith” and “believe.” Consider that he never brings up “reason,” “rational” or “logic.””

To which he rambunctiously responds with a herringbone question: “Is it only reasonable, rational and logical when it agrees with your narrow worldview Ivars? It seems that any argument that is contrary to yours will meet with the same diatribes of weaseldom and insult. You are pathetic.”

I hear your bleat Ika! I realize that it is a difficult critique for you to swallow, but you have earned it. Your reproach to LOL participants on this form is inexcusable. The term weasel words apply in your use of words and phrases to manipulate, deceive and distract the LOL readers. For example, your unsupported recent claim “There is joy unspeakable” is a semantic copout, a catch phrase that merits the weasel words definition. It is noted in your failure to support any of your claims or to justify your effort to belittle Latvians and their history. Thus far in your posts your approach has been “ignoratio elenchi,” that’s where you have not brought up one shred of reason, rational or logic to render you comments creditable. You came on this forum with an agenda and a chip on your shoulder concerning Latvians and the Bible. With that attitude you do not get a free ride.

~*~

My earlier response to Ika’s comment was: “Is taking a stance a requirement of Christian thought reform? I’ve never said that I believe in Dieviņš or that I hate the bible. That’s where Ika’s personal musings come into play, in line with being low in reading comprehension. The Bible is an acceptable children’s book when you take out pornography and sanitize the rest of it.”

To which Ika gives his knee-jerk response by stringing together a sentence: “This statement really shows your ignorance in it’s [sic] most obviouse [sic] scope.”

During Sunday school as kid I really enjoyed the part “and they’ll tell you stories that you never heard before” and these were a whale of stories until I started reading the Bible on my own and encountering, hmm what’s this? and this? and this? Gees, I didn’t hear any of this in Sunday school! I encountered sex stories, pornography (Genesis 30:1-13, 2 Samuel 16:21-22, 1 Kings 1:14, Genesis 19;30-36, Matthew 19:12, 1 Samuel 18:25-27, Exodus 4:24-26 et cetera) and war stories (1 Samuel 15:3, Joshua 4:13, Numbers 31:2, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Exodus 17:16, 1 Samuel 15:18, Genesis 34:1-35.5 et cetera). After all, it is a book written by men for other men! That’s what sells.

(Continued …)

(… continued)

My response to Ika’s earlier cajole on the word stance: “It hasn’t been necessary for me to take any kind of a stance, as I stand on the sidelines on these two religions at the 50 yard line. They are all fables and most intelligent Latvians know that already.”

Ika makes some assumptions and joshes some more: “So I assume you are one of those “intelligent” Latvians that can speak for the rest. So if another Latvian, aside from me, believe’s [sic] in Jesus, then that person is a fool as well. Yes, Ivars, the all knowing master of the universe who knows the answers that all should live by. Wow, what an ego you have.”

Now that you bring it up Ika, I do not presume to speak for other Latvians, but yes I am intelligent, as are most of the other participants on LOL. Each and every one of them has a competent mind of their own and they do not have an agenda to peddle Jesus the way you do. They also know their history and do not deliberately distort what they do not know. Calling some one a fool for believing the Bible are your words, not mine. The ego is a gift, it comes with intelligence, but we also pay attention to our id and alter ego. It’s only regrettable that you come up short.

~*~

My initial comment: “However, Martin Luther gets some credit for taking a stance. He had a problem with the Bible, the way the stories were told and I’m sure that we know the rest of the story.”

Here Ika takes a joyful out of context stand: “Martin Luther had a problem with the Bible? What an idiot. You keep professing your superior understanding of history, but make such a stupid statement.  Martin Luther had a problem with the Roman Catholic Church which had the erroneous teaching that the pope was god’s representative on earth. He started the reformation, which was based on “solo scriptura”, soley on scripture ( for you that means the bible ) not based on all the edicts that the Catholic church had made up through the centuries leading up to that time. Luther had a problem with the Bible?” A brilliant jump to conclusions Ika, and here’s a bunny hop dance in your honor: Hop, hop, hop hop hop, hoppa, hoppa, hop hop hop! {:~)

War had just ended a couple of years ago when I learned about Martin Luther. I was five years old in Germany, and had heard that this guy had nailed “something” to the door of a church. I do recall thinking that he must have done something important. At that age religion did not mean anything I just followed the crowd to the church, stood up when everyone stood up and sat down when everyone sat down. Call those years indoctrination years, as far as religion is concerned. Years later while studying philosophy I under stood that Martin Luther was a consummated worshiper of the Bible. He had translated the Bible into German but in doing so he did not in every case provide a literal translation, he had a problem with the way the Erasmus’ Greek New Testament text was written. He took the liberty to solve these perceived problems by using his own interpretations. So much for biblical authenticity!

What really got to me was that Martin Luther did not abide by the teachings of the Bible but drew his own conclusions that perpetuated the Holocaust. In his 1543 book “Von den Juden und ihren Lügen“ (On the Jews and Their Lies) he wrote that Jews are:

”…base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth.” They are full of the “devil’s feces ... which they wallow in like swine,” and that their synagogue is an ”incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."… their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these “poisonous envenomed worms” should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.” Furthermore he violates the teachings of the Bible’s 10 Commandmants by advocating: ”we are at fault in not slaying them.”

He influenced German people’s attitude towards the Jews. I need say no more.

(Continued …)

(… continued)

In place of the fictional Bible I had proposed that people consider, as a frame of reference, that: “The intelligent design created multiverses and it is time to give him credit where credit is due. But heavens forbid, Ika when you proclaim, while wear your horse blinders: “Science, doesn’t really matter to me …” With new information at hand nowadays, we need to get beyond belief of our earthly moorings. Earth and our Biblical fables need new readings beyond the Christian zero sum society of yesteryear. We need to embrace a whole new level of Visums with its nucleosynthesis of visible energy and matter, plus dark energy and matter, black holes, et cetera. It gets beyond the fabled earthly creation of Adam and Eve. As the intelligent designer, G-d does not come with an inferiority complex as portraid in the biblical testaments. There are no sins attached in moving up one notch. All this in the name of beyond the Bible and belief.”

Here’s Ika’s clueless response on science: “What a bunch of nonsense. We can all live to 1000 years of age and never fully understand the universe and it’s many wonders. The Christian sum of society isn’t in the yesteryear as you suggest, it’s very real in the events of the present. What is Islam, but the offshoot of Ishmael ( Abrahams first son by Hagar ) , what is Christianity and Judaism but the offshoot of Isaac ( Abrahams son by Sarah ). Here, a story written thousands of years ago shapes world events today ( exactly as the Bible prophesized in the very first book of the Bible, Genesis ) with a billion + believers in Christianity and billion + believers of Islam, still at the center of world events that can effect even your life Ivars if a suicide bomber comes to your neighborhood.”

Huh? Ika, our science advisor, announces: “We can all live to 1000 years of age and never fully understand the universe and it’s many wonders. ”Wow, a thousand years! He must have pulled that number out of a bunny hat. That’s a blink of the astronomical eye, a drop in the astronomical bucket. There’s no one that has claimed to understand that universe in any specific time frame. There even is no time limit if the lights go out in the next 13.7 billion light years. Our intelligent designer (ID) will jump start a new generator. {:~0 Learning and understanding is an on-going event.

Ika comes across as running scared of science and all that it entails. It may well be that he never sat in a science class 101 or been in a science laboratory 101 covering the basics of physics, chemistry or biology. Fear not Ika you will be saved as our ID does not destroy matter and energy. It will always be there as needed for whatever the ID deems necessary. Hope Ika is not clueless about general relativity?

Compared to the fictional Bible story, the story of our universe began 13.7 billion light years ago that shapes the cosmic events of space and time today with 500-billion plus galaxies each with 100-billion to 500-billion stars composed of energy and matter, orchestrated by four fundamental forces, physical laws and constants. There’s plenty of energy to draw from to meld chemistry and biology into temporary life forms to act out their rolls, receive a critique from ID and return the energy (the spirits) to the energy fold for future roll of life or an even bigger power play assignment somewhere in our universe.

Your comment Ika, is precisely on the mark: “… billion + believers in Christianity and billion + believers of Islam, still at the center of world events that can effect even your life Ivars if a suicide bomber comes to your neighborhood.” that’s why we are a zero sum society, if you understand the meaning. It’s time to crawl out of the shell that we have built arounds us and get beyond belief to an even better belief.

~*~

Ika’s touchy-feely closing remarks: “You’re a man who wants to stick his head in the sand and bury it with your silly world view [sic], and pompous false intellect. Thinking that insults will drive away faith.”

Faith is universal Ika, you and the Bible do not have sole ownership of faith. As for your insults and agenda on this forum Ika, I do not take them seriously. You admitted to your agenda on post # 3 “I wrote this as a provocation to Latvians in general.” You did so without any foresight, insite and simply there was no homework done on your part. You were clueless by calling your perceived opinion of Latvian outlook on life as a “bunch of garbage.” Like I said earlier, with an attitude like that you simply do not get a free ride on this forum.

Key words to remember: Who cares – belief – faith – judgementalism – condemnation—science – science doesn’t really matter – clueless – history - anti-Semite – SS – Holocaust – weasel word – Dievs – God – Intelligent Designer – Universe – Bible – Trinity is a doctrine, not part of the Bible—brainwashing – loaded words

Carpe Diem, you all!

Cheers, Ivars

Ivars, we are done with the discussion. You haven’t said it exactly, but you don’t believe in the God of the “bible”, it’s quite obvious by your responses. I think I’ve made it fairly clear that I do.

You can continue going on with with your “world view” arguments, and I can counter with the “real world” definitiions found in the living word of God ( the Bible) and,,,,,,,,,,,,, we’ll never agree.

Mostly for the same reasons. As foolish as you think I am, I see you just as foolish. This is the great thing about “debate”. Obviously we can go no further, you enjoy insulting me, throwing out “big words” and whatever to impress other readers, but have failed to sway me one bit, just as I haven’t swayed you at all with my arguments. Fine, I’m happy with who I am and the life I lead. Your responses make me think you are a bit frustrated, uncertain, OCD?  Maybe not, that might still be me not liking you. Between me and you, it hasn’t neen a friedly discussion.

Hey, maybe we can go out and have a beer? I can smack you over the head with my Bible, and you can reciprocate in whatever makes sense to you. It’ll be fun. In the long run, Jesus loves you too.

Tongue in cheek, while you may not like it, this is my way of making peace w you, It’s time to move on to the real world and it’s constraints.

As Bruno says “Visu Labi”

Ikabod!  I just wanted to let you know that I commend you for having a good attitude.  It’s refreshing to see someone who remains committed to his principles, convictions, yet, is willing to put aside differences and make peace.  I don’t see that too often, especially here on LOL!  Good for you!

Irena

You’ve been one curious case study on this Latvians on Faith forum Ika. When you posted on this forum it became apparent to me that you could not to be taken at face value. While I’ve got some kicks out of your shenanigans you didn’t rise above the clouds. Nevertheless, your religious transfixation was an interesting one, unusual in a sense that most of the bad banana peals get scattered on LOL’s open forum while dealing with ideologies and political extremes. This was the first real extreme case on the faith forum that toppled the Bible stories from their perch. Here’s a guy who considering the “cause and effect” of the whole, plays dominoes only with the “effect” side of things pretending that a “cause” does not need to be reckoned with.

Aw Ika, you really know how to hurt one’s feelings. Ika cries out: “…you enjoy insulting me, throwing out “big words” and whatever to impress other readers, but have failed to sway me one bit …” Yours is quit a transparent thought process Ika, as you use the defensive word “sway me.” I never though of swaying you Ika. You were a lost cause right from the start. My participation was as a result of your uncalled for assault on things Latvian, trying to bring dicredit to them and playing on the side of Kremlin propaganda. Kibitz? As for my use of the Latin phrases, which troubled you so much, they hardly fall under your “sway me” use of the language. These Latin words have been used on LOL from time to time to entertain the readership, add a little pizzazz to what otherwise would be a mundane subject. In our modern day and age you can always google the meaning when you are stumped. Besides, I never have the chance to apply all my years of studying Latin to any populist type entertainment. The Latin words are harmless compared to your thought-terminating clichés that play on the fear, sympaties and emotions of innocent folks – faith, belief, salvation, anti-Semite, SS, Holocaust – used with various techniques to induce fear, guilt complexes, intense excitement etc. Consider that your post #21, in psychological circles is known as “love-bombing,” which have been described in court as more effective means of persuasion than the brainwashing techniques used by the N. Koreans against their UN prisoners. Now that’s some religious power tool against the meek minds of men and women caught off guard. People simply succumb to these loaded words for which you provide no proof or explanation.

~*~

Here Ika, talking to himself as he often does, is grasping for straws: “Your responses make me think you are a bit frustrated, uncertain, OCD?  Maybe not, that might still be me not liking you. Between me and you, it hasn’t neen [sic] a friedly [sic] discussion.”

Between you and me, that reminds me of Nobel Prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg’s quote: “With or without religion, good people will do good, and evil people will do evil. But for good people to do evil, that takes religion.” And, here is something comforting for you as Albert Einstein said, “God does not play dice with the universe.” Those notes should be stuck in your Bible someplace.

As for your inducing the OCD pun, Obssesive Compulsive Disorder that you’re trying to pin on me, we’ll let the jury judge, as I am not into peddling anything. Did you pick that up at the Bible indoctrination school?

~*~

It seems like Ika is groping for his peace pipe: “Hey, maybe we can go out and have a beer? I can smack you over the head with my Bible, and you can reciprocate in whatever makes sense to you. It’ll be fun. In the long run, Jesus loves you too.”

Beer! I don’t drink beer, as it’s a fat man’s drink. Do you object to moonshine? I’ll just simply chide you for unsportmanlike conduct towards things Latvian, as you do not know any better. Latvians have their own way of looking at Dievs who does not lack self-esteem and requires no ego-stroking chants of “praise the lord” and brown-nosing. The difference is that Latvians were not born in sin, as you would like to make them believe. Dievs does not expect Latvians to suckup to him as they are free in their own right and besides he has other things to do around his Visums. Further more, Dieviņš loves you too.

Zay gezunt aleykham Ika!

To labāko, Ivars

Thank you Irena for your kind words.

Ivars, there is nothing more to say. You have your view which I totally disagree with, and I have mine, which you appear to disagree with. Time for a new forum, is there something you and I might agree on?

You might say no, but.... you might be surprised.

Thank you Jesus

I had to actually register to this website to reply to this post.  Are you kidding me?  Latvians pre-date christianity and were never overrun by the Romans, so of course our traditional beliefs that evolved with us hold much sway -if you believe in evolution. Of course if you believe in creationism then our pagan beliefs were developed after observation and symbiosis with the natural world.  Assuming of course, that Adam and Eve spawned all of humanity and not just the Jews.

Either way does that negate the belief in God?  Which God exactly?  I come from a Latvian family with the saddest of stories as do many of our people.  My grandfather lost his farm to the communists, my grandmother died of stomach cancer when my father was seven leaving 5 children essentially orphaned in the midwest..with no connection to our history or people what-soever.

But what is amazing and interesting is: is that after the communist fell and we were able to connect with Latvia again how much my isolated family and the culture at large had in common.

I cried when I learned of many of the “pagan” (so labeled by many an occupier) traditions and beliefs we shared with a land we were severed from.

I would honestly have to say, that as time has progressed and the more latvians I have had the pleasure of meeting we all have a common thread.  Ancientism?  Soulfullism?  I am not sure what you label it but there is something about us which is unique that may just be our inherent connection to the natural world, if that is the case- so be it.

If you want to truly dominate a population, bring them your religion.  Perhaps that is part of being Latvian: holding on to the old ways that are ours.

Welcome Nagla - I agree with with so much of what you said. Many of those old beliefs are considered superstisions etc - but who cares? I guess when iy comes down to it - many culture often seem to have their own unique beliefs, or even odditiees. Many of these beliefs are likely based on old fervent beliefs - religious or otherwise. I guess it is often difficult to tell where religion or culture ends, and the other begins. As a people - I don’t know that there is another cultural group that might be as accepting as Latvians. I can recall from childhood that my parents would receive Latvian visitors that were a friend of afriend’s friend ( so forth and so on) - and somewhere along the line line one of these people had told them that when in the area they should look these people up, and they would put them up for as long as they were there. My parents did take in these visitors - and enjoyed the company. I guess the small groups do have to look out for each other.