Hello Peteris, thanks to you and others on this forum, I do know a lot more about Latvia’s written history and culture than I did 10 years ago. My knowledge was word of mouth before that.
Your remark that I don’t speak the language isn’t strictly true, after 55 years of belonging to this now declining Latvian community of course I have picked up a smidgen of Latvian, but the grammar, reading and writing brings me out in a cold sweat and to improve myself and become a good Latvian I put a feature in the local newspaper for a tutor, and, low and behold, not far from where I live, 12 Latvians have arrived to work in a sawmill, one is middle aged and has an educational background, which is a bit sad, that he needs to labour over here, they live in caravans on site , but seem happy enough for the moment. He is to be my tutor . Soon, one of your darts will be lost..

My point is that not speaking the Latvian language, or knowing as much about Latvia as you do is irrelevant , the fact is that you, in my opinion, are an American living in Latvia, , you know more about Latvia than I do , I think that I know more about the average Latvian than you do, after 55 years of being around Latvians and numerous visits , I don’t need to visit Delfi to know what Latvians think, I ask friends, and when I visit, I ask friends (albeit in my own way)
What summed your post up for me was the way you brushed aside the Latvian concerns over the red holocaust, Bolsheviks, communists, the red Nazi’s, as a smoke screen for murdering Jews in Latvia, by Latvians. It seems to me that it is mainly the opposite , the Jewish holocaust used as a smokescreen by
Socialist propagandists and perpetuated by you on this forum, to hide their own crimes against humanity,
You may be in love with Latvia, your contempt for Latvians is obvious.
You said yourself, that there is not much information out there on those culpable for the red terror, as a “Latvian” with the obvious intelligence, and information at your fingertips, don’t you feel any sort of duty to attempt to correct this imbalance, and help bring about justice. Admittedly this would take courage..

Peteris is no letttophobe and I want to distance myself from any implication that may lead anyone to think so.

Of course there is nothing virginal about the Latvians and generally if I had not been critical of their thinking processes, I have abstained from saying anything good about them. My major criticism of the Latvians has been that they have allowed their occupiers to write their history. In that sense they are still occupied people. In that sense I and Peter are on the same page, but perhaps working on different paragraphs.

Living in Latvia , I can see how he has gotten mired in the “Baigai s gads” syndrome. That pamphlet, and the thinking that is wrapped around it, needs to be deconstruct.  The booklet was written during the Nazi occupation and as such it could not but contain Nazi principles. Although there was a person by the name of Shustin, the name as a symbol in Latvian thinking was embedded by the Nazis. Before the Nazi arrival in Latvia very few Latvians knew that such person existed. To the degree that Shustin is still invoked as a Satanic image to that degree Latvians are Nazi occupied people. Latvians ought to be thankful to everyone who are fighting that image. In my time I too have written considerable amount about that problem.

However, no less significant is it to deconstruct the thinking that pushes a Nazi interpretation of the Holocaust in Latvia. The latest assault of the type is coming from the current generation of German historians. The paradox is that while I am trying to save the Germans from a revival of Nazi templates they call me a nationalist, which, I assume, is a curse word.

I agree with Terry about Peter for at times he has trouble remembering what LATVIAN city he lives in. I also have a sister who moved to Latvia and she also has illusions of now being a master of Latvian knowledge (must be a sickness) but I generally ignore her.
Mr. Ezergailis
Now that you have made me ignore the book “The Murder of Jews In Latvia” I have a question about the Latvian pilot Čukurs. There are claims of him responsible for the murder of 20,000 Jews in Latvia so the Mosad killed him in Uruguay. Since there is one book that I can find about him but written by the Mosad agent who helped do it, and when I asked other Latvians in Latvia they claim it false. Can You enlighten me of how much truth there is. Is this a Latvian denial thing?

Here’s a link to Efrem Zuroff’s view on
Mossad’s mistake in murdering Cukurs…......

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=245494&ct=948863

I would love to see the Cukurs matter adjudicated by the Hague international court of justice. The least that should happen is for the Massad to open up its archive and show us what was the evidence that persuaded Massad that Cukurs killed 20000 people.  I had a little piece about Cukurs published in a Riga paper.

An average is a mean, of course, and Latvians differ wildly—if the average person has 1,34 children, you will not get to know a person with 1,34 children—you’ll get to know a childless one, one with two kids, etc.

The Black Colonel, though not a citizen, is an ethnic Latvian; Rubiks is a Latvian and a citizen who draws many a voter; Niedra was a Lett even when stripped of his citizenship; Jukums Vācietis was ethnically Latvian, etc. Then there are the many people of mixed ethnicity, and the many Latvians of different ethnicity.

I grew up Latvian in America and lived there for much of my life, indeed—I’ve lived and worked in Latvia since 1991, however, minus a couple of years; I’ve probably spoken to far more Letts than you have, Terry, with very different views and with many opinions, informed and uninformed and in between. My “Latvianness” gets questioned by right-wing diaspora Letts on the Internet far more often than it does is in real life; I’m a Lettophone and a Latvian citizen, I work for different branches of the Latvian government much of the time, I’m married to a Lett, most of my friends are Letts, etc. 

Contempt for Latvians? Puh-leeze. Lettophobia? What do you base this upon—that I don’t share your love for a dictator, don’t subscribe to your comic book version of history, or that I say “Dvinsk” now and then? We’ve been over variations of this theme many a time, Terry, and it’s getting tiring. I can recommend a book for you—The Culture of Lies by Dubravka Ugrešić—

http://tinyurl.com/34t7uv

Vysu lobu,
/P

I copied a part of an article in http://www.tvnet.lv about the 15th division
documents, which were puchased from a dutch collector for 46k lats.
Tis is a bit off the subject, but shows what happens in war…........

http://www.tvnet.lv/zinas/latvija/article.php?id=473280

15. divīzija izbrauca uz fronti, pienācīgi neapmācīta un nesagatavota un 1944. gada jūlijā gandrīz jau bija zaudējusi kaujasspējas. Valda Kuzmina skatījums: “Divīzija cieta milzīgus zaudējumus ne jau tāpēc, ka Hitlers necieta latviešus, bet tādēļ, ka bija pieļautas kļūdas tās veidošanā. 1944. gada jūlija dokumentos ir ļoti objektīvi vācu rakstīti ziņojumi par latviešu cīņassparu – kāpēc tas nav liels. Vācu virsnieki norāda, ka latvieši zina, pret ko cīnīties, taču neviens viņiem nav teicis, par ko tiem būtu jācīnās. Leģionāriem trūka pozitīvā mērķa. Vācu virsnieki rakstīja arī to, ko neviens latvietis neatļāvās izteikt. Proti, ka leģionā lielākoties mobilizēja mazizglītotus lauku un pilsētu iedzīvotājus no nabadzīgām ģimenēm. Faktiski proletariātu. Turīgie un bagātie palika mājās. Kā ierasts Latvijā – atpirkās, palīdzēja draugi, radi. Tad arī radās jautājums: kāpēc man, kalpam, te jācīnās, ja saimnieka dēls palika mājās? Pulkveža Januma vai ģenerāļa Bangerska memuāros jūs to neatradīsiet, bet vācieši to uzskatīja par lielu problēmu. Viņi raksta, ka jauniesaukto vidū valda diezgan sociālistisks noskaņojums.”

Kauja pie Bauerzē

Pulkvedis Janums savās atmiņās vēsta, ka 1945. gada februāra kaujās Vācijā visas pavēles divīzijai devis un štābu faktiski vadījis vācu leitnants Pape, jo komandieris, SS oberfīrers Akss, bijis pārāk nevarīgs. “Rodas jautājums, vai vācieši bija tik stulbi, ka ļāva dot pavēles leitnantam, vai tomēr bija noticis kas cits? Atbilde ir pavisam vienkārša – viss 15. divīzijas štābs krita, tika ievainots vai pazuda bez vēsts 2. februāra kaujā, izlaužoties no ielenkuma un ejot pa priekšu ap tūkstoš ievainotu latviešu karavīru kolonnai. Ir vesela A4 formāta lapa ar divīzijas štāba zaudējumu uzskaitījumu. Viņiem bija jāieņem Bauerzē ciemats. Ja to neizdarītu, tūkstotis ievainoto latviešu nonāktu padomju gūstā. 15. divīzijas štāba priekšnieks Volfs krita ar lodi galvā. Ar lodi galvā krita 32. pulka komandieris majors Rubenis. Krita vēl daudzi virsnieki. Palika Akss un Pape. Tajā pašā laikā, kamēr notika kauja, divus kilometrus uz austrumiem cauri mežam izgāja pulku komandieri pulkvedis Janums, majors Ķīlītis un viņu vīri. Kāpēc viņu nebija pie Bauerzē? Principā divīzijas štābam vajadzēja iet caur mežu, nevis cīnīties izlaušanās smailē. Kāpēc tā notika, tas būtu vēl jāpapēta,” problēmas ieskicē Kuzmins. Lūk, atbilde, kādēļ divīzijas štāba dokumentos kopš februāra jūt “redaktora pirksta” trūkumu. Gluži vienkārši teju visi štāba virsnieki bija gājuši bojā. Katrā gadījumā militāros vēsturniekus latviešu leģiona 15. divīzijas dokumentos vēl gaida ļoti interesantas lietas.

The two latest posts by Peteris show clearly that he is a Lettophile and an intelligent and well-informed Lettophile. Only transparency and a lack of defensiveness will enable us to get beyond the baleful effects of Nazi and Soviet misrepresentations. Prof. Ezergailis and Peteris understand this quite well. Prof Ezergailis has laid the foundations of a true history, along with Marģers Vestermanis and now together with a group of historians, many of them young, who are doing the necessary work. It will do no good at all to deny that *some* Latvians (not “the” Latvians) participated actively in the Holocaust, and of these some with enthusiasm; it will do no good at all to reply to vilification from Russian or other sources with a lame “well how about all the Latvians that the Soviets killed!” Dispassionate historical research on all aspects of the Second World War in Latvia is the *only* way forward. Latvians suffered greatly under both occupation regimes, and a number of them also helped to impose suffering on others in collaboration with one or another (or both) of those regimes. The trimdies did indeed avoid the very topics (the crucial role of Latvians in the success of the Bolshevik siezure of power in Russia; the participation of Latvians in the Holocaust) that Prof Ezergailis has done so much to bring to light. “Let us speak only of that history that brings glory to our nation” is an attitude not at all peculiar to Latvians, but it really never does good to anyone. It is doing no good to the Russians, who seem to have gone back to it after a brief flirtation with transparency, but this is not an occasion on which it is appropriate to respond in kind.

Stephen

Hello Steven,

The Latvian involvement with the Bolsheviks is history.
The fact that A small minority of Latvians took part in the murder of Jewish people is history.
The fact that, most Latvians considered the Germans more civilised than the Russians, and saw a way to independence through them, is history.
The fact that the Legionnaires were not bona fide ss is history. Old hat recycled..

Whats to deny,  if a Latvian would prefer to get on with his life, rather than harp on for ever more about things he can do nothing about, where’s the problem, if he doesn’t want to discuss the Bolsheviks, or the holocaust, then he should be able to do so without being patronized by sanctimonious handwringers whom would put the witch finder general to shame, you find a witch, I’II find the evidence.

Of course there needs to be a good defence against .    “Nazi and soviet misrepresentation.” hee hee hee, did you mean Nazi and Russian propaganda ? .and the best form of defence is of course offence,
Latvia suffered her own holocaust, and to the families involved, it was every bit as harrowing , as to the Jewish people .
A holocaust, a case of large scale destruction,    In the case of Latvia .  of family, culture, language, and much more. So until the perpetrators are brought to justice, how can the professor be laying foundations for a true history,  there is a Jewish holocaust industry out there,  but there is very little on the Latvian decimation,  the attempted ethnic cleansing of Latvia by Russia should be the foundation of recent Latvian history. And also the offensive against propagandists

I

Terry wrote:

The Latvian involvement with the Bolsheviks is history, etc.

Indeed, it’s history—like the occupation and the deportations, and like the First, Second, and even the Third Awakening. Like last week, in fact. Why are some things “old hat recycled” to you, and others not? Latvia suffered her own holocaust in the way you phrase it makes no sense at all, Terry—most of the Jews who were murdered here were Latvian citizens; the part of the Holocaust that happened here is part of “our holocaust.” I would also remind you that the character and nature of the (capital “H”) Holocaust and the crimes perpetrated by the Soviets was radically different—look at the demographics now, Terry. Concentration camps are horrific in any case, of course—but the vast majority of those deported by the Soviets survived (and by the way, more Jews were deported from Latvia by the Soviets in 1941 than people from any other ethnic group, per capita). The fact that, most Latvians considered the Germans more civilised than the Russians, and saw a way to independence through them, is history—what a strange sentence! Many of the leading members of the First Awakening were rather russophilic—most were germanophobic. Later, German intentions in Latvia in both world wars would have resulted in the total destruction of the Latvian nation had the Germans been victorious (as the Soviet occupation, which lasted far longer, obviously did not)—ca. 90 000 Latvian citizens lost their lives during the German phase of the occupation, including ca. 18 000 ethnic Latvians. What exactly do you mean by “civilisation”? As far as I can tell, your views are “old hat recycled,” Terry—they’re based upon a shallow knowledge of history, myth-making, and very selective “hand-wringing.”

Vysu lobu,
/P

Terry, #53 writes:

“Nazi and soviet misrepresentation. “hee hee hee, did you [Stephen] mean Nazi and Russian propaganda?”

I am quite sure that Stephen, who is an intelligent being, has no problem distinguishing between the terms, “Soviet”, “Russian”, being aware that they are not necessarily interchangeable.  And that NOT, all Russians are Soviets as per your implication.

Irena

In my shallow method of logic- Latvian Holocaust- the attempted ethnic cleansing by the destruction of person, family, culture, language, identity, Whether the Latvians involved were Jewish, Lutheran, Christian, is irrelevant.  This holocaust was carried out by mainly Russians…..

Jewish holocaust-the attempted ethnic cleansing by the destruction of person, family, culture, language, identity of the mainly Jewish people.  This holocaust was carried out mainly by the Nazi.

Germany has accepted her part as the perpetrator and after 60 years most people accept that justice, as far as possible has been carried, out. With the major criminals, and some not so major hunted down..
Unfortunately a distasteful industry has grown up around it, and by some people it’s used as a means to patronize others.

Russia, on the other hand has never admitted to her part in the Latvian holocaust, justice for the victims has never been attained, Russian perpetrators haven’t been named to any great extent, surviving Russian criminals haven’t been hunted down, although some undoubtly still live in Latvia. Russia has got away with her holocaust largely unscathed.

“The vast majority of those deported to the gulags, by the soviets survived.”

Well, my uncle didn’t.    I find it strange that this will not arouse in you any real sympathy. He wasn’t Jewish, and he was in the Legion, and he preferred German to Russian, but he was a Latvian patriot . Does this make him a lesser man in your eyes ?  He deserves some attempt by fellow Latvians, with the necessary skills to bring to justice his murderers..

You put the figures in Peter, you are so much cleverer than I, 
Murdered by Russians circa;  1939-91
Latvians
Estonians
Lithuanians
Hungarians
Poles   etc;  etc; don’t these victims of the Russian fascists deserve the same attempt to secure justice as the Jewish people have received..

In my shallow method of logic- Latvian Holocaust- the attempted ethnic cleansing by the destruction of person, family, culture, language, identity, Whether the Latvians involved were Jewish, Lutheran, Christian, is irrelevant.  This holocaust was carried out by mainly Russians…

“Mainly Russians” means what? In what capacity? Latvia was destroyed by agreement between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Though the effect of the Soviet occupation was devastating to the ethnos, that was not the intention, at least not explicitly—if you would reach a bit further back, you would discover that a large part of this nation had few nationalistic desires prior to 1917/18. One of the things I think we have to come to terms with is this flow—despite Stalin’s annihilation of many of the Latvian Reds, Latvia always had enough Red Latvians to heavily influence what happened here. Sorry, but those guys weren’t Russians.

You are a UK citizen, yes? Do you diligently support Cornish self-determination? How’s your Welsh? Do you beat your chest or wring your hands about what you did to Ireland regularly?
 

Jewish holocaust-the attempted ethnic cleansing by the destruction of person, family, culture, language, identity of the mainly Jewish people.  This holocaust was carried out mainly by the Nazi.

I don’t get this, Terry. Above, you suggested that it is irrelevant whether the Latvians were Jewish or Zoroastrian. This makes some sense. Now you are talking about the Jewish people as a separate entity. So how do you draw these lines? One of the things I have been trying to point out to you is that Latvians are not monolithic. The Gulag was the original creation of a Latvian—did you know that? According to Rayfield, ca. 75% of the Cheka’s central management in 1919 was Latvian, ethnically. Ezergaiļa kungs, besides being the greatest historian of the Holocaust in Latvia, has also written extensively on the role of the Letts in the Revolution. Many of those rather renowned Red Letts died an ugly death… not a few of them at the hands of other Letts. See http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/stalinslatviesi.html

So we are talking about the nation—i.e., the political nation, born 18 November 1918, died 15 May 1934 oops I mean June 1940? Really? Are we? How does one join this nation? Can one leave?

Germany has accepted her part as the perpetrator…

Indeed, and that’s grrrreat! See how she accepts her part as a perpetrator in what happened to the Republic of Latvia, which is part of what she happily carved up with her friend, Mother Russia. I’m afraid Ezegaiļa kungs could point out to you that the German press generally echoes Nazi propaganda regarding the period of his major study. 

“The vast majority of those deported to the gulags, by the soviets survived.”

That is not a quote, by the way. Do be careful with how you quote me, please. I try to choose my words carefully.

Well, my uncle didn’t.    I find it strange that this will not arouse in you any real sympathy.

Hmm. I think this is where you really deserve some nātras, a concept Pete can explain for you, my dear interlocutor. What do you know of my sympathies, except that I detest moronic generalizations? Look, Terry, non-Lettophone and Little Englander—much of my family died at the hands of the Soviets. I lack sympathy for my relatives, perhaps?

Again, I tried to be quite careful with my words—I was hinting to you that the fact that there are almost no Jews in Latvia might explain to you how that Holocaust is different from the vision you propose as instructive; where I live (that is, live, i.e. spend my days), in the second largest city in Latvia, what do you think affected the demographics most?

He wasn’t Jewish, and he was in the Legion, and he preferred German to Russian, but he was a Latvian patriot . Does this make him a lesser man in your eyes ?

Where the f do you get this stuff? I don’t know anything about lesser men—maybe you can teach me about the Untermensch, in your spare time? 

He deserves some attempt by fellow Latvians, with the necessary skills to bring to justice his murderers…

Who are what, to you? “Russians”? By virtue of their ethnicity? I find that unutterably pathetic, sorry—then what of the many Russians who were killed by the Soviets?

That Russia propagates a lot of Soviet propaganda, and it does, is one thing—but… well, get off it. Get real. Latvia would never have become independent again without Russian support, both in Latvia and in Russia. Your type of rhetoric is spit in the face of those Russians who did stand up for Latvia. I know plenty of hardcore nationalists, and the ones I respect are those who do not spit in those faces.

You put the figures in Peter, you are so much cleverer than I, 
Murdered by Russians circa;  1939-91

Spare me. As I noted above, Alksnis and Rubiks are Latvian. The Soviet Union, while dominated by Russians, was an international—indeed anti-national—entity.

Of the four main signatories to deportation orders in 1941—three were of Jewish origin and one was a Latvian. Who were they? That doesn’t interest you? What is identity to you, anyway? Do please forgive me if I smirk.

When is a person anything, I wonder… I guess you think of yourself as a Latvian, and that’s dandy. You have the gall to call me a Lettophobe. I don’t question your Latvianness, Terry—it comes down to self-identification, which has varying parameters. Shustin, Terry, was déraciné. Alksnis, for instance, is not—he still calls himself Latvian.

The rest is just history, with spices.

/P

terry et al,,

You all slide into discussing this topic from viewpoints that the russions love. Namely, talk about russians, germans and the latvians in the middle. It is actually about russians, germans, and in the immediate vicinity, not only latvians but also estonians, lithuanians and poles. What do they all have in common? Russian, allright soviet, aggression that has to be accounted for.  For the oppressed countries it was just a variation of russian aggression that has to be accounted for in toto, and not parsed out to each country.

Visu labu,

hello Irena,  I was’nt laughing at Steven, just the political correctness of the statement…