Aleksejs,
Putin: Successor as nationalistic as I am - USATODAY.comPutin: Successor as nationalistic as I am ...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-08-medvedev_N.htm - 44kNOVO-OGARYOVO, Russia (AP) —

President Vladimir Putin said Saturday that the West should not expect relations with Russia to be any easier under his newly elected successor, who is “no less of a Russian nationalist” than Putin.
Putin said many observers view Dmitry Medvedev as a more liberal politician and hope Medvedev’s presidency will help ease strained relations between Moscow and the West.

“Some of our partners can’t wait to see me stop fulfilling my duties so that they could deal with another man,” Putin said at a news conference after talks with visiting German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

“But (Medvedev) is no less of a Russian nationalist — in a positive way — than me. And I don’t think it will be easier for our partners to deal with him,” he said.

Merkel later met with Medvedev, the first foreign leader to visit him since his resounding victory in Sunday’s election to succeed Putin. Merkel said she expected cordial ties between the two countries to continue.

I’m sure Latvians will hear more than they want about Gazprom (and Gazprom employee, the former German Chancellor Schroeder) and the new “cordial ties” between Russia and Germany.

Thank you for cutting and pasting, ambersun. That interview got a lot of publicity here, by the way, to the point that President Toomas had to say he was sorry that his words were misinterpreted. You also claim to be a victim of frequent misinterpretation – the fact that I find ironic. But unlike you, President Toomas had said that Estonia needs anyone whose native language is not Estonian. And I wonder if you’re prepared to say the same thing, though I discard my wondering.

ambersun - 10 March 2008 11:29 AM

Aleksejs, you really need to get off that Kremlin-inspired name-calling of everything you don’t like or agree with “Nazi.”

No, ambersun. This isn’t the Kremlin propaganda because I clearly stated that Latvians are not Nazis. I believe I didn’t simply accuse you in spewing Nazi philosophy, but rather drew it conclusion from your posts. What makes duck a duck is not that someone calls it a duck, but rather its beak, its feet and the fact that it says “quack.” You, dear ambersun quacked your way into the category of fascism or racial and national superiority, if you will, both highly unpopular in the present-day Latvia.

ambersun - 10 March 2008 11:29 AM

I would like to redirect your failed Putin-propaganda back home to Putin’s Russia where “nationalist Nazis” among young Russians is an out-of-control problem.  I would suggest it would be far more helpful to you and the Russians in Latvia (and Russia) to do some soul-searching about the Russian historic embrace of deadly authoritarianism and a national character that can’t admit any wrong. 

Russians have their problems, but talking about them on Latvians Online isn’t going to make your soul to sing. I deal with Russian problems on Shtab’s forum board, if you must know. But diverting attention from your own freely expressed points of view into how wrong the other side is appears to be childish. I never claimed that Russians have everything sorted out, but Latvians are the only ones with problems. Far from it. But you’re not a Russian, are you? What business it is of yours what problems have people of other ethnicity, who clearly aren’t Latvian, and clearly darken the picture of your perfect latviešu Latvija?

Not the whole lot, I guess - other than feel a bit better by comparison or shift the conversation from a constructive “dialogue” into an analysis of Russians.

ambersun - 10 March 2008 11:29 AM

In this case, do think of the Germans who own up to their Nazi past and where the current generation is still paying reparations, unlike the Russians who either deny occupation - and more importantly even, like you, deny its residual harm to the Latvian psyche and character - and just can’t think of one among themselves who was a either a Soviet or an Occupant.  Redirect some of your outrage to the Russian Nazi-NAShI - and the undeniable toxic mixture brewing in Russia that has dire consequences to near-neighbor vulnerable Latvia, of xenophobia, racist nationalism, authoritarianism, self-righteous and nostalgic longing for the Soviet and Stalinist past, violent homophobia, brutal corruption, etc.  It’s time for all Russians to do the really difficult and brave thing: to finally take that scary look in the mirror.  Stop flailing at old demons with old Soviet propaganda while being unable to address the new and important ones in your own ethnic backyard.

Are Latvians exempt from xenophobia? Racism? Intolerance? Were only Russians throwing shit and holy water at gays and lesbians outside the Reval hotel a couple of years ago?  Are Latvians exempt from government corruption?

This isn’t a competition of which nation or ethnicity is a better one. This is a conversation about your attitude to people whose blood has been tainted with non-Latvian ancestors, but who find themselves living in your beloved Latvia. And then, you’ll be saying that Russians have Latvians in Latvia by the balls? Based on what? I’ll repeat it again in case you missed it the first time—not a single ethnic Russian held any official government position in the Republic of Latvia since 1991. Now, I’d still like to know what Latvia’s position on Nord Stream is and the outcome of the Russian presidential contest. Care to cut and paste something, ambersun?

ambersun - 10 March 2008 12:01 PM

Aleksejs,
Putin: Successor as nationalistic as I am - USATODAY.comPutin: Successor as nationalistic as I am ...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-08-medvedev_N.htm - 44kNOVO-OGARYOVO, Russia (AP) —

President Vladimir Putin said Saturday that the West should not expect relations with Russia to be any easier under his newly elected successor, who is “no less of a Russian nationalist” than Putin.
Putin said many observers view Dmitry Medvedev as a more liberal politician and hope Medvedev’s presidency will help ease strained relations between Moscow and the West.

“Some of our partners can’t wait to see me stop fulfilling my duties so that they could deal with another man,” Putin said at a news conference after talks with visiting German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

“But (Medvedev) is no less of a Russian nationalist — in a positive way — than me. And I don’t think it will be easier for our partners to deal with him,” he said.

Merkel later met with Medvedev, the first foreign leader to visit him since his resounding victory in Sunday’s election to succeed Putin. Merkel said she expected cordial ties between the two countries to continue.

I’m sure Latvians will hear more than they want about Gazprom (and Gazprom employee, the former German Chancellor Schroeder) and the new “cordial ties” between Russia and Germany.

Excuse me. Latvians don’t know much about Gazprom? Do Latvians live in a cave? As a friend of mine says, “horse manure.” Latvians do know about Gazprom. They do know about Russia. So you cannot blame the government’s and some people’s attitude on ignorance.

Aleksejs, you have totally gone of the deep end with your intolerant invectives directed at any voice that opposes your diatribes against Latvia and Latvians.  You are left ranting your hostile Kremlin-inspired propaganda into thin air.  You demonstrate little real interest in having any understanding for Latvians except as they either fail you as a “Russian minority” in Latvia or thwart your agenda to advance the bilingual, bi-national ("multicultural") Latvian/Russian Latvia.  You are the clueless Russian chauvinist occupant mouthpiece who lives in Latvia but can’t bear to call himself a “Latvian.” I wrote “dialogue” as in the verb and also I wrote, “talk among yourselves,” which you either conveniently misinterpreted or selectively ignored as you do so much else.  I don’t understand why it’s so important for you to get my opinion on anything and I’d like to remind you that I’m not in Lubyanka or the corner house and don’t need to respond to your insulting, ignorant interrogation.  Maybe you can “talk among yourselves” about the rosy picture you paint of your Russian-occupation-denying, nearly-always-Russian-speaking, not-as-beautiful-as-northern-Michigan Latvia with the “ugly history.” You’ve written so much more that I could cut-and-paste and quote about your vision of The European Republic of the Russian-dominated Latvia but I’d rather save my time for other writers on “all about the baltics” more knowledgeable, objective, scholarly, and constructive like Edward Lucas, Yegor Gaidar, Lilia Shevtsova, etc.  who know that you need to view Latvia in the large shadow of “menacing” Russia.  I’m interested in comprehensive political, economic, social, and environmental solutions for Latvia and all Latvians and not wasting time while you narrowly brow-beat your racially-pure ethnic Latvians and sob-story-tell about your oppressed “Russian minority” in Latvia.

PS Aleksejs: Did I ever tell you about the time I was standing in line at the grocery store surrounded by Russian-speakers and I had to go the bathroom.......or better yet, I was on my way to my cousin’s house in Rezekne and needed to get directions.......

Peteris Cedrins - 09 March 2008 06:31 PM

Aleksei’s questions are about Latvian policies—they have little to do with any Russian elite, Juri. The seminal point Aleksei has made, which Ambersun refuses to touch, is that Latvians—latvieši, ethnic Latvians—have run this country for about seventeen years. There haven’t been any Russians in the Government of the Republic of Latvia (unless you count Vladimirs Makarovs, Latvian enough to be on the Far Right). This is a free country, and we have free elections and a free press—unlike Russia. Poor, misinterpreted Ambersun’s views look to me like the views of Raivis Dzintars—this world-view gets a couple of percent of the vote. On the other side of the aisle—the “Russian” parties have been full of Latvians (latvieši, ethnic Letts) and are even occasionally led by them (us)—Jurkāns, Rubiks, et al. are latvieši.

I would ask the questions that have repeatedly been posed to Ambersun again, but it appears to be useless.

Vysu lobu,
/P

Thanks, Peteri.

How do you think, Mr.Putin saying “Mr.Medvedev is not less Russian nationalist” meant “Russian” as -
just “russkiy” or “rossijsky”, including also more than 180 other different ethnic groups of Russia?

Regards,

Juris

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

Aleksejs, you have totally gone of the deep end with your intolerant invectives directed at any voice that opposes your diatribes against Latvia and Latvians. 

Not any voice, your voice. I oppose anyone who stands for Latvia for Latvians (that’s ethnic Latvians) alone. I oppose any ethnocentric society. I oppose ethnic supremacy and putting up one nationality over the other, much like your comments about Mr. Jurkans, whose Pole-Latvian ancestry has something to do with his opinions on multi-ethnic Latvia.

And my comments are not intolerable. I don’t advocate that you don’t have a right to your opinions. Or that you should be banished for life.

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

You are left ranting your hostile Kremlin-inspired propaganda into thin air.  You demonstrate little real interest in having any understanding for Latvians except as they either fail you as a “Russian minority” in Latvia or thwart your agenda to advance the bilingual, bi-national ("multicultural") Latvian/Russian Latvia. 

How is my “propaganda” Kremlin-inspired? How is it that you avoid answering simple question regarding Nord Stream and Latvia? I have enough understanding of Latvians to know that a vast majority of them are nothing like you, ambersun. I’ve spoken to enough Latvians to know that they don’t care at all for Latvija latviešiem and they proved it again and again at the polls. Perhaps, who needs an education about modern-day Latvia, it’s you. Get to know the people, all the people, who live here, chat with them about what bothers them, what concerns they have, and you’ll find out that concerns over language and national minorities are not as important as they used to be. You will find out that people are concerned with rising prices (inflation again hit the 11-year high), they’re concerned with Latvian corruption in the Latvian government run by ethnic Latvians. They know that Latvia as a member of the EU will see an influx of third-country workers and they cannot and should not become an monolithic latviešu-centered state.

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

You are the clueless Russian chauvinist occupant mouthpiece who lives in Latvia but can’t bear to call himself a “Latvian.”

I can bear myself to call a Latvian. In fact, I can proudly say that I’m a citizen of the Republic of Latvia and that I’m a patriot of my country because I want it to become a better, wealthier country in the European family, based on principles of democracy, tolerance and understanding.

What I cannot call myself is an ethnic Latvian, because I’m not such. I’m a citizen of Latvia with Russian ancestry. 

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

I wrote “dialogue” as in the verb and also I wrote, “talk among yourselves,” which you either conveniently misinterpreted or selectively ignored as you do so much else.  I don’t understand why it’s so important for you to get my opinion on anything and I’d like to remind you that I’m not in Lubyanka or the corner house and don’t need to respond to your insulting, ignorant interrogation. 

It’s not an interrogation, ambersun. It’s obvious to anyone that you avoid answering any questions that relate to Latvia, but rather focus your efforts on Russia-bashing. Fine, but as someone who cares about this country as you appear to be, you ought to be able to answer the questions many of people here have repeatedly asked. Instead, you resort to useless cutting and pasting. I have said it before, I’m interested in your own opinions, which only came out in your balls post, but without any evidence to back it up. So should we assume your statements are based on hot air?

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

Maybe you can “talk among yourselves” about the rosy picture you paint of your Russian-occupation-denying, nearly-always-Russian-speaking, not-as-beautiful-as-northern-Michigan Latvia with the “ugly history.”

You must confuse me with someone else. I never denied the Soviet occupation of Latvia. I never denied that Latvian is and should remain the only state language.

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

You’ve written so much more that I could cut-and-paste and quote about your vision of The European Republic of the Russian-dominated Latvia but I’d rather save my time for other writers on “all about the baltics” more knowledgeable, objective, scholarly, and constructive like Edward Lucas, Yegor Gaidar, Lilia Shevtsova, etc.  who know that you need to view Latvia in the large shadow of “menacing” Russia. 

Ah, the shadow of Russia. And why pray I, Latvia appears to be the only Baltic country in the shadow of Russia? Why not Estonia? Lithuania? Why only Latvia? Of all three Baltic states that share a common history up until 1991, who suffered through Soviet occupation together, why only Latvia stands in the shadow of Russia? The more knowledgeable, objective, scholarly and constructive people like Edward Lucas do not call Estonia as the country where the new Cold War is being lost. They don’t point to Lithuania as the weakest link in the Baltic chain. Why not?

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

I’m interested in comprehensive political, economic, social, and environmental solutions for Latvia and all Latvians and not wasting time while you narrowly brow-beat your racially-pure ethnic Latvians and sob-story-tell about your oppressed “Russian minority” in Latvia.

All Latvians meaning what? Are people of Russian descent who are citizens of Latvia included in that statement? Or am I again misinterpreting what you’re trying to say. Clarify it please.

Re: stores and such. That is the remnant of the Soviet policies and it has been changing. Incidentally, have you tried asking anyone in Rezekne in Latgalian for directions?

For dessert, ambersun, I’ll cut and paste pieces of a subsequent interview Estonia’s Toomas Hendrik Ilves gave a Swedish wire service....

I respect the mother tongue of every Estonian citizen and have a high esteem for Estonian laws which by no means restrict anyone from communicating in the language they feel most comfortable in. In this respect, private individuals are perfectly free to make their choices, as they are anywhere in the democratic world.

....

I am deeply sorry if my words have been interpreted as an offence to anyone’s national feelings or mother tongue.

The Republic of Estonia is a safe home for those who do not have Estonian as home language and whose roots are in other countries, however far. But in order to be truly successful in this country, they also ought to learn the official language. I am pleased to see this happening more and more often.

Now, if you recall, ambersun, no one denies the need to learn Latvian. I certainly don’t. But you appear to be jumping on the case of many ethnic Russians (most of whom are citizens) whose first language is Russian as if their place is not in Latvia. How come? Is Latvia not a safe home for those who do not have Latvian as home language and whose roots are in other countries, however far? Or is Mr. Ilves not a “knowledgeable, objective, scholarly and constructive ‘people’ “?

ambersun - 10 March 2008 02:05 PM

You are the clueless Russian chauvinist occupant mouthpiece ...

Oh, and it’s an occupier, not an occupant. I’m an occupant in a sense that I occupy my place of residence. An occupier is “a member of a military force who is residing in a conquered foreign country..” but they left Latvia in 1994.

Sveiki!

Ambersun wrote to Aleks: „I would suggest it would be far more helpful to you and the Russians in Latvia (and Russia) to do some soul-searching about the Russian historic embrace of deadly authoritarianism and a national character that can’t admit any wrong.  In this case, do think of the Germans who own up to their Nazi past and where the current generation is still paying reparations /…./”

Do you also think that those Mennonites descended from ethnic German ancestors who sought religious freedom and moved to US territory in the 18th century should engage in „soul-searching” about the sins of Nazi Germany?  Regardless of whether they’re practicing or their faith has lapsed, both US Mennonites and Latvia’s Old Believers have centuries of their own experiences at a far remove from their ancestors’ birthplace – a place, moreover, that is a foreign country to the descendants.

Per Aleks’ posts, his ancestors were Old Believers who fled Russian religious persecution and moved to Polish-controlled Latvian territory in the late 17th century.  During Latvia’s 1st period of independence, Old Believers were highly respected for their undeniable patriotism as citizens of the newly established Republic of Latvia, as well as for being staunch anti-communists.  In Aleks’ case – as you can read in his blog – this last tradition continued during the Soviet regime, his grandfather refusing to join the communist party.  And as long time readers of LOL may remember, this was a household that listened to Voice of America broadcasts during the occupation.  Undoubtedly, there were other non-Soviet values, forged over hundreds of years of living in Latvian territory, that were held by this particular family, and other Old Believers, too.

Why on earth should a descendant of Old Believers need to examine, much less assume responsibility for „the Russian historic embrace of deadly authoritarianism?” When all of Latvian territory was incorporated into the czarist Empire, Old Believers once again were periodically subject to intense religious persecution and no less than Latvians were subject to Russia’s authoritarianism.  Your attempt to force Latvia’s ethnicities into simplistic stereotypes is doing a grave disservice to our history.

Visu labu,

Elizabete

Elizabeta, I’m sure Aleksejs will enjoy discussing Mennonites and Old Believers with you, and I support this “dialogue” between the two of you. You seem like old friends and maybe together you can create a joint Old Believer Russian/Latvian vision for Latvia to share here on LOL.  Maybe you can help Aleksejs finally get justice for Old Believers (are they all Russian?) who according to you, under the czarist Russian Empire, “were periodically subject to intense religious persecution [and] were subject to Russia’s authoritarianism.” Of course, you just may still have to deal with “Russia’s [historic] authoritarianism” but how you get whatever Russians to do any soul-searching I’ll leave up to you and Aleksejs. I’m hands off and stand unjustly er reprimanded. I hope you can counter what you consider my “grave disservice to [your] history.” For the life of me, I had no idea I was being so bad.  I thought I was hyper-sensitized to ethnic stereotypes having grown up as a DP and with a strange name to boot but call me an insensitive lout. Old Believer Russians are not the same as “Russians” just because they are all, as Aleks said, “culturally Russian.” Anyway, don’t take my timeaut personally but I have to finish reading Edward Lucas about new Russians in the new Russia and some material I have about the Russian persecution of old Lutheran Latvians.

Sveiki!

Ambersuns wrote: „/..../ Old Believers (are they all Russian?) who according to you, under the czarist Russian Empire, “were periodically subject to intense religious persecution [and] were subject to Russia’s authoritarianism.” ”

No, this isn’t according to me.  For others who actually have a genuine interest in Latvia’s history, please see „Vecticība Latvijā.” Author: Arnolds Podmazovs.  Published by: Latvijas Universitātes Filozofijas un socioloģijas institūts. Rīga 2001.

Visu labu,

Elizabete

Elizabeta wrote:

Ambersuns wrote: „/..../ Old Believers (are they all Russian?) who according to you, under the czarist Russian Empire, “were periodically subject to intense religious persecution [and] were subject to Russia’s authoritarianism.” ”

No, this isn’t according to me.

Yes, this is word-for-word what Elizabeta wrote:

When all of Latvian territory was incorporated into the czarist Empire, Old Believers once again were periodically subject to intense religious persecution and no less than Latvians were subject to Russia’s authoritarianism.

Good luck with your interest in studying Old Believer Russians.

One wonders what prevents ambersun to learn just a bit about other cultures, especially those who inhabit Latvia. Is it ignorance? Laziness? Close-mindedness? Or is it something one learns in America?

aleksejs - “tautas dziesmas and folk dancing”

Is that all that is Latvian culture? Hmm, I thought there was much more to it. I guess I was wrong.

Learning isn’t exactly synonymous with liking, or belonging to. I wouldn’t expect you to attend any of their services, convert to vecticinieki and change your name to a Slavic one. Any more or less so than one should expect me to like those same folk songs and dances. But it doesn’t hurt to learn them or something about them....