If you care to, Bruno, you can look under Baltic Gods at Google and see that better men and women than you or I get very confused about which God or Goddess was more important than the other, re: Saule, Mara, Laima, Perkons, Dieviņš, etc. That is because the area occupied by the Balts was visited by much violence and people as well as Gods lost their lives. Incidentally, the late Marija Gimbutas of UCLA has a wonderful book on ancient Goddesses--I am sure accessible at your local library and at Amazon. You do not have to take my interpretation of the religion of the Balts, but it is grounded and argued well enough to upset any number of neo-Christians. See you at Jāņu vakars at my pagasts in Latvia. Watch for the ad regarding time and place.

FYI - if you google Marija Gimbutas you will find that her book on Baltic mythology is on line.

I fail to see what purpose these Latvian gods serve. The most compelling arugument I’ve seen repeatedly is where it’s a unifying force to bring Latvians back to their roots as “Latvians”. But we’re already better than that.

The tautas dziesmas are beautiful indeed, and to me they define a Latvian Cultural identity well enough. But to make it into a religion seems very shortsighted and almost pompous. We really need to have our very own gods?

You know them by their fruit. It’s a good way to measure truth, does it yield fruit? A harvest if you will. What has Dievturiba, or John done for this world? The answer is, not much. What has Jesus done for the world? Plenty.

Why is it so important to link Latvian identity with these pagan gods? It’s simple to understand why a people living anywhere in the world thousands of years ago might come to worship “thunder” ( perkons ) because the limited knowledge of men everywhere would hear thunder and be afraid, thinking it was some kind of god that was upset about something. What else could they possibly have come up with?

Latvians don’t need their very own personal god to preserve their identity. But they need to know God to preserve their souls.

The argument by Ikobods O. is of course is spacious globalization, a kind of neo-liberalism not for capitalism, but religion. In both cases big money destroys small businesses and religions by overrunning them, and then damning them as “beautiful”, but lacking staying power because they cannot sell to Pop culture.

That Latvian folk poems and their content (and they do have content worthy of everyone’s attentions) are suggested to be “pompous” when coming up against big name Jesus is religious pomposity of the first order. No doubt, neoChristians have been doing good work, but when we take a closer look, then we see how it got to be that way: First, by pushing the others off stage; second, by collaring governments to give them the money to distribute to the poor. It is dogooding with something of a vengeance. I suggest that our local folklore group can do better--if given the opportunity; third, by doing a lot of neoChristian self-promotion, but ignoring the fact that all those hundreds of years of talking have done nothing to avert the social and environmental crisis that we are now at.

“Latvians don’t need teir very own personal god to preserve their identity. But they need to know God to preserve their souls."--Ikobods Ozols.

Oh dear, here we go again. Everyone elses God should be written with a small g, but the neoChristians should be the only ones with the right to spell their god with a big G.

The Latvians do, in fact, need their own personal God, that is to say the cultural God, Jānis, because Jānis not Jēsus is going to save the Latvian soul by holding it to its culture, its past, the “beautiful” folksongs and the religious sentiments expressed within them. These folk verses/poems/songs are the very soul of the Latvian people at least when it comes to talking about those outside the Pop culture circuit, but into which we are being pulled by neoliberal collusion of state with the orthodox church.

Incidentally, my book argues that it is the name Jānis that precedes the name Jesus, just as John the Baptist precedes Jesus. The trouble that John the Baptist encountered was that the neoChristian Jesus pushed him off the stage just as they are pushing off the stage Jānis. I also argue, that like John the Baptist and Jesus, Jānis is a self-sacrificial God, an element that binds all three (and others, too, like Joan of Arc, for example) into one religion--archChristianity.[/size]

The following is an excerpt of an interview with Marija Gimbutas at
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:OEGkHHaF_qkJ:www.levity.com/mavericks/gimbut.htm+Marija+Gimbutas&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5

Marija Gimbutas: These proto-Indo-European people came from South Russia to Europe, introduced the Indo-European culture and then European culture was hybridized. It was the old culture mixed with the new elements - the Steppe, pastoral, patriarchal elements. So already at that time, thirty years ago, I sensed that, in Europe there was something else before the Indo-Europeans. But I still didn’t do anything about the Goddess, about sculptures, or art, or painted pottery. I just knew that it existed but I didn’t really have the chance to dive into the field. The occasion appeared when I came to UCLA in 1963 and from 1967 I started excavations in south-east Europe, in Yugoslavia, Greece and Italy, and did that for fifteen years. When I was traveling in Europe and visiting museums I was already building some understanding of what this culture was like before the
Rebecca-interviewer: Indo-Europeans, before the patriarchy.
Marija: It was always a big question mark to me; what could it be? This is so different. Painted pottery, for instance, beautiful pottery. And then the sculptures. Nobody really was writing about it. There were so many of them, wherever you went you found hundreds and hundreds. I was just putting in my head what I saw. So then I started my own excavations and I discovered at least five hundred sculptures myself.
Rebecca: How deep did you have to dig?
Marija: It depended. Sometimes at a site of 5,000 B.C, it was on top. You could walk through the houses of 7,000 years ago! Other times you have to dig deep to reach that. Usually you excavate sites which are already exposed, which are known and where people are finding objects of great interest. Many things have been destroyed in this way. Some interesting excavations were made, especially in Greece and I started to understand more and more about sculptures. I don’t know how it happened, at what moment, but I started to distinguish certain types and their repetitions. For instance, the bird and snake goddess which are the easiest to distinguish.
So I slowly added more and more information. The first book was called Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe. Actually the first edition was called Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe, because I was not allowed to use Goddesses first.
David-interviewer: According to who? Was it the publisher?
Marija: Yes. The publisher didn’t allow me. In eight years a second edition appeared with the original title, Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe.

One of the problems with your assessment Jandz has to do with your terminology.  You certainly understand the wordy phrases you use, but they make no sense to me. For example: “my argument is “spacious globalization”.  Wow, double speak at best, who can understand such a concept other than yourself, in your world? Honestly, is there any other reader listening to this discussion that understands this term?

It’s also a “kind of neo-liberalism not for capitalism, but religion” ... hmmm tremendously enlightening. Is there anyone out there that understand this dribble? I’d like to know, maybe it’s beyond my intellectual capacity, but perhaps someone can interpret this in a language that can be understood.

“I suggest that our local folklore group can do better--if given the opportunity;” If given the opportunity.. ... by who Jandz, if the Latvian gods had any merit, the opportunity would be given by the grace of God. Who is supposed to provide this “opportunity”. Is it simply “intellectual” opportunity? If it has value, it will thrive of it’s own accord, it doesn’t need to be “given the opportunity”. If it has merit, it has worth. Since it has no worth, it has no opportunity.

“but ignoring the fact that all those hundreds of years of talking have done nothing to avert the social and environmental crisis that we are now at. “

Who’s fault is that? God’s? or humanity?

“Oh dear, here we go again. Everyone elses God should be written with a small g, but the neoChristians should be the only ones with the right to spell their god with a big G.”

Pointless gibberish! And you’re writing a book about what exactly? That no one will read?

“The Latvians do, in fact, need their own personal God, that is to say the cultural God, Jānis, because Jānis not Jēsus is going to save the Latvian soul by holding it to its culture, its past, the “beautiful” folksongs and the religious sentiments expressed within them. These folk verses/poems/songs are the very soul of the Latvian people at least when it comes to talking about those outside the Pop culture circuit, but into which we are being pulled by neoliberal collusion of state with the orthodox church.
“

How sad for you. For those of you paying attention to this discussion, what has Janis done to save your Latvian soul? Aside from Jandz, I don’t expect a single reply.

“ Incidentally, my book argues that it is the name Jānis that precedes the name Jesus, just as John the Baptist precedes Jesus.”

Yes, John the Baptist preceded Jesus, just as the Bible prophesied. What did John say about Jesus Jandz? He said that he wasn’t even worthy of. and i have to paraphrase since I don’t have my bible in front of me, of tying his shoelaces.

John the Baptist knew that Jesus was the Son of God. John, the Latvian neophyte is what? The answer is he is nothing, and will remain so, because he has no value.

To sniks,
I missed your earlier reply which came after several others, so I will attempt to answer your comments “forthwith”

“there are unfortunately many ideas in any religion that were borrowed or stolen from other existing or per-existing religions. I am no expert on the subject - but while personally recall little regarding Jesus - they are quite simple. First off - the staff of Christ. This was borrowed from Zeus - and the Baltic God also ssems to be based on the same deity as Zeus. The resurrection of Jesus is also not unique. I don’t know of others - but in ancient Egypt, Osiris was resurrected long before Christ. Unfortunately - my Egyptian mythology recollection is now rather vague - but I don’t believe I am in error to state that many ancient religions associated many of their gods with the sun. You seem to mock everything that does not agree with your personal beliefs.”

I’ll start with your statement above. Yes, much of what you say has been found in various writings and philosophies of our worlds history. None of it has made any sense though, but in the person of Jesus Christ, who tied it all together. He died for the sins of man. This was his purpose. As to mocking everything that doesn’t agree with my personal beliefs, well.... I suppose it comes across as mocking, but this is the nature of faith. If you believe something strongly, then opposing views become irrelevant. I understand that this is true for me, and that it is probably offensive to those of you that like to think having an “open mind” has some noble purpose.

I have been down that road, I’ve chosen my path, and I defend it.
No one can convince me otherwise at this point in my life, so shoot me.
I won’t apologize for my faith in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour, and the only means by which we achieve salvation. It may seem “judgemental” as you suggest.

“Other discussions (the Dievturiba in particular) show that you tolerate nothing but your own judgement - and that seems to be one very important part of religion that you seem to have forgotten - “judge not lest ...”. “

Judge not lest ye be judged. Correct. But my God tells me, thou shalt not hold other gods before me. It’s not judgementalism, I am simply following my faith. To you, it seems critical, and judgemental, but my God has already told me their is only one way to salvation.

Look, it’s all about what you believe. I’ve made my choice and am extremely grateful for what it has done for my life. That’s my story. Not yours, or someone else reading this narrative, but it’s my story, and I am a happy soul for making that choice.

It’s obvious to me that Dievturiba, or this more silly notion of making St. John a god, provides nothing for the world. It may provide something for it’s very small following of what can only be a handful of Latvians, but doesn’t do anything for the rest of the world. You want to condemn me for that? Is it “oh, live and let live?”

My faith tells me their is much more at stake than just finding a way to live that “feels good” today. Your very soul is at stake, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others who know the truths that I know.

“Which versn of the bible are you reading - in that are many different versions, translation etcetera”

Mostly, I have read the king james version, but look to other sources for clarification if I don’t understand a passage.

“ike any other document - the words written there are certainly not always accurate traslations of the original writings.”

Actually, I believe that despite the Roman Catholic churches domination of the “Christian” faith through the centuries, that the Bible has indeed come out fairly intact with it’s original text and message intact. This was God’s miracle, because for sure the Roman Catholic Church would have change the words willingly to meet their cause, not the cause of God. God wouldn’t allow it. And that’s why it didn’t happen.

“hristianity was not the first and not necessarily the best religion ever - it was simply the victorious one over many others. If you ever have the opportunity to watch the movie “Hawaii” - please do so. It is probably one of the best movies I know of that shows how many well meaning religious individuals destroyed beautiful people with their judgemental ways and their religious convictions. Keep the faith - but lose the judgement.”

Sniks, I see you are attempting to see all points of view in an objective manner, and are a man of reason. In that you still give credence to what I say, but acknowledge that it’s not your personal belief. I think that I have already explained that I have come to believe what I believe, most fervently, for me there is no turning back, no more compromise. That’s why it sounds judgemental. And perhaps it is.
There is a reason why Christianity was victorious. And the reason is because it was “meant to be”

While I haven’t seen “Hawaii” I have heard that this was a land of placid humans, living a life in peace that was disrupted and tormented by the arrival of Christian missionary’s. As was the same story with South America and the Inca’s.

The gift that God gave to man was “freedom of choice"m if we didn’t have freedom of choice, what would we be other than God’s robots on earth.

The choice to kill Hawaiins, Jews in the holocaust, Latvians that were killed by their adversaries, were made by men. Often those men came baring the sign of the cross, and insisted they were fighting in the name of their God.
But their God really turned out only to be the financial or political gain they reaped from whatever evil they bestowed upon the world.

What I have repeatedly tried to say in these discussions is that the Bible itself, the Word of God, doesn’t advocate doing these horrors to others. It’s not there. People think it is because of the actions of fools who did things “in the name of god”. It wasn’t my God.

Sorry. Ikobods O. You can stay with your convictions, but you have obviously indoctrinated yourself with neo-Christian ideas and have got hung up on the supernatural. Nothing much I or anyone can do about that. An unsatisfactory life leads one to dream of an afterlife in the beyond.

The Bible may seem a prophecy to you, but to most of the modern world it is a book written by men, read by men, and said to be “holy scripture” by men who do not understand what writing by men is about and who, like those who read horoscopes, cannot begin their day without an outside source giving them direction. I do not doubt that you read the Bible, but what else do you read? Education as a whole ought to be the outside source, not a single book, whether red, green brown, or black.

As for neo-Christianity, at least on a site that discusses the topic of Latvian Jānis, it is relevant only to the extent it derives from it, but does not supercede it. It came to prominence by the sword and remains in prominence through intolerance of others. Janis is obviously not only in Latvia, but from out of the many Jans, Johans, Hans, Huans, Johns, Jeans, Giovannis, etc. and his long history in Europe. They are all still here, and the new stir in “religion” is not by way of Jesus, but has a breadth that will rediscover the dead it needs to reawaken--including Janis within themselves.

When you talk about my Latvian soul, I get the strong impression that you know nothing about Latvians and care less, except that they convert to a supernatural and ineffective way of understanding the world today. If you scan my earlier letters, there are sites and sources other than myself to refer to.

Here is a Latvian folk song you ought to read:

Jānītim bērns piedzima,
Pēterītis nokrustija,
Anniņ’bija auklētāja,
Jēkabs maizes devējiņš. 33041

1. Jānis is the father;
2. Peteris (before neo-Christianity) is Pērkons. He does not kristen, but draws a cross (formerly probably by way of a light from the sky, re lightning;
3. Anniņ is the mother; in ancient mythology Anna is the ocean of the universe;
4. Jacob is the stepfather.

That is how the Baltic arch-Christians see it.

I sincerely feel I must apologise for yet once again asking a question which has caused controversy.

Jandz,
I honestly think you are taking this by far, to serious.
From my curiosity and asking a mere question, I have only become more confused by your view points.
I have come to understand John’s Day originating as a Pagan celebration, one of folklore and fun which was later incorporated through Christianity. Whether it be a Pagan or Christian celebration, it is still a celebration of thanks and one which is fun. (Personally I can not say I practice a specific religious belief for I find religion to be ‘stifling’ hence my great enthusiasm for St. John’s day)
Be it Pagan, be it Christian, be John a Saint or son of, you are marring this celebration with technicalities and opinion. And that I have found to be the problem with religion through the generations.
You want to take a mythological figure of folklore and fun and give him a title of God, why?
Because you believe Latvians not to have their own religious figure?
Is that not how Scientology started? L.Ron Hubbard had beliefs which was not the usual opinion of others, so he then created his own religion with followers of his same belief. Was that not how Catholicism started, or Christianity for that matter?
What does it matter what one believes in as long as they have faith to believe in a higher power that gives them guidance in need?
Ireland is still fighting over religious opinions and in my opinion, that is not what religion should be about.
You have become extreme in your belief and have chastised others for not following your belief. Opinions are a choice, beliefs are a choice and religious practice should be a choice.

There is no St.John’s day in Latvia. We celebrate Liigo sveetkus.

DisaW, you started out by wanting to know who was John and what John’s Day or Jāņu Diena was about. That is how I understand your original inquiry. You got various uninformed answers. I happened to come across the site and responded apparently not in the “fun” way you expected all Latvians think of Jānis. As one writer used to say, So it goes. You don’t have to believe me, but if you really want to know you will start reading and, thus, becoming more informed. Jānis has many traits. One of Jānis functions was as Veļu tēvs, that is to say, Father of the Dead. In the old days death and erotics were closely bound (they still are, but that is a much censored topic to this day), so Jānis had also a part in procreation and recreation. Here is one folk poem that ever so slyly (and wittily) tells it:

Kur, Jānīti, tu stāvēji,
Kad es tevi neredzēju?
--Vidū sētas pagalmā,
Vībotnīšu ceriņā.
(Vērmelīšu pakrēslē.)
LD 8050

Regarding the herbs mentioned in the verse: „Sudrabainā un rūgti smaržojošā vērmele atbrīvo no sliktām enerģijām un palīdz vājēt. Vībotne ir vērmeles radiniece un pelnījusi augt pirts tuvumā. Vērmele ir sens maģisks augs, kas tīra gaisu, veicina zemapziņu, attīsta prātu, izkrāso sapņus un dziedē.” So, obviously, Latvians knew the medicinal qualities of the herbs. That is what is written at http://www.videsvestis.lv By mentioning these herbs, the verse sayer also gives several further hints.

It seems quite clear that the verse is said/sung by a woman. She understands that Jānis stands (stāv). But why does she not see him? Where is he? A second voice, perhaps of Jānis himself, tells her: I am standing very close by, in fact, in the middle of your court.

Of course, the court is not that of a sauna (pirts--a place of relaxation and fun), though it may be that, or a house, but, well, I think that it is actually ever so much closer than either. I will let you make your own guess as to where the court is located.

Jānis is an ancient God. As ancient Gods are wont, they have many functions that modern people seeking fun do not understand and do not want to understand. But that is not my fault or the fault of Jānis. The fault is in our ancestors, yes?

Peter B;

Am I to understand that in Latvia there is no such celebration of St. John’s day but rather one of Summer Solstice, then actually it is not a celebration for Janis or dievs but rather a celebration of nature???

If you speak and read Latvian you will find a lot of information the the following folklore site. The first sentence reads: “Jāņi is the most Latvian of Latvian festivals....” You take it from there.

http://www.liis.lv/folklora/gadsk/origin/jani.htm+Jāņi&hl=lv&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=nl

If for some reason you cannot raise the sites, go to Google and click “Jāņi”. You will get quite a few sites if not all of them equally informative. And read former posts, because there are a number of interesting sites on YouTube dealing if not with Jānis specifically, then with information that is relevant to Jānis. I especially recommend the ad for A. Fomenko’s book, “"History: Fiction or Science”. Fomenko is a famous Russian mathematician and analyst of history.

Many more studies can and should be made about this festival not only with regard to Latvians, but all cultures of the world. Jaņi are celebrated at the summer solstice, because the summer solstice is an important astronomical event. The Latvian people gave Jānis the honor of being celebrated at the summer solstice, because he was a most important God. Of course, many neo-Christians are trying to rename the day as Līgo Svētki, or Saulgrieži, or even the Great Picnic, or Beer Party. But that is what has been done with many ancient religions, American Indians, Australian aborigenees, etc. The Latvians have encountered the same problem, the propagators of which are, unfortunately, many neo-Christianized Latvians.

There’s been so much written here about Jani, on LOL, throughout the years, but unfortunately the archives are no longer accessible.  Jandzs is right about there being a lot out there on google.  As a matter of fact, here’s a site on wikipedia about Jani, an overall summation ,which briefly discusses St. John, how he fits into things--hope that helps somewhat. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jāņi

Irena

How weird!!  I have no idea why this link is not coming through!!  But if you go to google and write Jani, you’ll find this article in “jani~Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Jāņi
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jāņi
Caraway cheese is traditionaly served on Jāņi
Also called Zāļu diena; Līgo
Observed by Latvia
Type National; Ethnic; Pagan
Significance Celebration of summer solstice
Begins 23 June
Ends 24 June
Observances Staying up all night, making bonfires, eating cheese, drinking beer

Jāņi (IPA: [jaːɲi]) is a Latvian festival held on the 23/24 June to celebrate the summer solstice, the shortest night and longest day of the year. Both days of Jāņi are public holidays, and people usually spend them in the countryside.

Jāņi was originally a pagan custom; after Christianization it became associated with Saint John the Baptist’s feast day, which falls on June 24; therefore the festival is always held on the night from 23 June to 24 June, not on 21 June/22 June when the summer solstice actually takes place.

Jāņi is thought to be the time when the forces of nature are at their most powerful, and the boundaries between the physical and spiritual worlds are thinnest. In the past, evil witches were believed to be riding around, so people decorated their houses and lands with rowan branches and thorns in order to protect themselves from evil. In modern days other traditional decorations are more popular, including birch or sometimes oak branches and flowers as well as leaves, especially ferns. People wear wreaths made from flowers for females, or oak leaves for males; in rural areas livestock also is decorated.

Jāņi also is thought to be the perfect time to gather herbs, because it is believed that they then have magical powers. Other practices of magic in Jāņi vary from fortune-telling to ensuring productivity of crops, as well as livestock fertility. A well-known part of this celebration is searching for the mythical fern flower, though some suggest that the fern flower is a symbol of secret knowledge; today it is almost always synonymous with having sexual relationships. Despite common belief, no remarkable increase in birthrates is observed nine months later [1].

Another important detail is fire: A festival fire must be kept from sunset till sunrise, and various kinds of flaming light sources are used; usually these are bonfires, which traditionally people jump over to ensure prosperity and fertility. Traditional food during Jāņi is a special type of cheese with caraway seeds, made out of curd, and the traditional drink is beer. Many people make the cheese of Jāņi themselves; a few also make their own beer.

Representatives of Latvian Emergency services often warn that Jāņi can be harmful to health because of the amounts of food and alcoholic beverages consumed, as well as maltreated fires.

[edit] See also

* Midsummer
* Saint Jonas’ Festival
* Fern flower

[edit] External links

* Folk believes of Jāņi in Latvian
* Latvian Seasonal Holidays
* Icons of Latvian culture: Midsummer’s Eve

Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jāņi”

Categories: Christianity in Latvia | Latvian culture | Latvian holidays | Festivals in Latvia | June observances | Summer holidays
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