To Bruno the Lett,
You sound overconfident. That is fine. Keep on laughing. But there is a saying that he who laughs last, laughs best. You surely have heard of it. What will you say when the last laugh is on you?

To the rest of Readers,
In due time, comes Jāņu vakars, 2008, there will appear an ad inviting the public to attend the “awakening Jānis” ceremony. This is likely precede a wider celebration at the pagasts park at an “ideologically” more neutral level. I have helped sponsor that event for some ten years now. Readers are welcome to take note of the temple to Jānis (in the making) at http://www.latvianjanis.com Sorry, some elements are still being constructed, but all are welcome to make their creative suggestions.

To Bruno
Thanks for the comment “May the best christian win. “ It had me LOL ( laughing out loud, not Latvians on line....) Thanks for that chuckle.

To Jandzs
Arch Christiantity, neo Christianity. Mumbo jumbo at it’s best, your ramblings on those subjects are at best, confusing.

Very strange indeeed.
“We are located in Latvia on the Baltic Sea, where the Gods have been forgotten”

My comment: Perhaps Latvians never found a god to forget. And if the gods were forgotten, who forget them? Latvians of course.

“Legend has it that this is when the God Jānis visits the Latvian people.” ( John’s day )
Wow. once a year, what a sacrifice it must be for Johnny boy to make an appearence once a year.
I hope it’s not too much a strain on his golf game.

I guess you believe in what you say, but your writings are so obscure and lack any sense. It would be better to leave St John as the patron saint of a great Latvian party, papardi, and sex in the woods, than to try and make him into a god. It’s called a ........... stretch.

You must have had too many LSD laced piragi in your time on this earth.

Sorry, but your theories are at best.... weird.

Ikabod - there are unfortunately many ideas in any religion that were borrowed or stolen from other existing or per-existing religions. I am no expert on the subject - but while personally recall little regarding Jesus - they are quite simple. First off - the staff of Christ. This was borrowed from Zeus - and the Baltic God also ssems to be based on the same deity as Zeus. The resurrection of Jesus is also not unique. I don’t know of others - but in ancient Egypt, Osiris was resurrected long before Christ. Unfortunately - my Egyptian mythology recollection is now rather vague - but I don’t believe I am in error to state that many ancient religions associated many of their gods with the sun. You seem to mock everything that does not agree with your personal beliefs. While I commend you on your personal faith - I do not believe that you have much in the way of Christian charity. You seem to be extremely judgemental. Other discussions (the Dievturiba in particular) show that you tolerate nothing but your own judgement - and that seems to be one very important part of religion that you seem to have forgotten - “judge not lest ...”.

Don’t take me the wrong way - I believe most of us have very personal ideas of religion - that we simply will not share. In the case of others - it is simple - they have no religious conviction whatsoever. Many of my Latvian relations do not understand the concept of religion - in that they were raised in a political environment that did not endorse religion. Perhaps to them Dievturiba would indeed be a more readily accepted and understood concept - in that it stresses harmony with nature - in short - it embraces all of creation. Which version of the bible are you reading - in that are many different versions, translation etcetera. Like any other document - the words written there are certainly not always accurate traslations of the original writings. Christianity has certainly borrowed much from many religions that existed before it, and managed to re-write much based on its own needs as its popularity expanded - the re-writes were largely to placate believers that found the doctrines too conflicting and often too harsh. To say that they are the only true words are unfortunately erroneous. If you truly wish to read studies done of other ancient religions - you most certainly will find that even many prayers in the bible were taken from other religions - vertually word for word.

Christianity was not the first and not necessarily the best religion ever - it was simply the victorious one over many others. If you ever have the opportunity to watch the movie “Hawaii” - please do so. It is probably one of the best movies I know of that shows how many well meaning religious individuals destroyed beautiful people with their judgemental ways and their religious convictions. Keep the faith - but lose the judgement.

One of the founding arguments of the Latvian state was that the Latvians had proved themselves to be a group of people worthy of sovereignty, because they had their own folklore designs and folk verses/songs about their own Gods of male and feminine gender.  Unfortunately, many of the collectors of these folk verses/songs were converts to Christianity, many were Christian ministers, and as a result, many folk verses/songs that mentioned the name of a God of the Balts, his or her name was simply converted to God (Dievs). When the songs were forwarded to the archives, there was no way to prove or disprove the accuracy of the name of the God--notwithstanding the reputation of Kr. Barons, the heroic rescuer of tautas dziesmas from oblivion. The accuracy and honesty of the contributors was simply presumed. Because of the close connection between government and religion in those times, the founders of the Latvian state let things stand as they were. When E. Brastiņš, the founder of Dievturi movement, later tried to resuscitate something of the pre-neo-Christian epoch, lacking an in-depth knowledge of the mythology of foreign countries and studies in mythology and anthropology even abroad still being influenced by orthodox Christian notions, he, too, did not much question the change of the names of Gods, such as from Janis to God, or from Laima to God, and who knows how many other Gods acquired the name Dievs or Dieviņš. The latter is especially cited as the anthropomorphised Latvian version of God, when it fact the only God known to wander, come and go, from here to thither and yond was the God Janis. Janis escaped—except for superficial attention--even the attention of E. Brastiņš. Indeed, this may have contributed to the failure of Brastiņš and his followers to secure for the Latvian spiritual beliefs, their arch-Christianity, official recognition as a religion at that time.

jantžs et al.,

“ Unfortunately, many of the collectors of these folk verses/songs were converts to Christianity, many were Christian ministers, and as a result, many folk verses/songs that mentioned the name of a God of the Balts, his or her name was simply converted to God (Dievs). “

To arrive at the above conclusion, you undaubtedly studied many thousands of dainas. Perhaps you could post a few to prove your point.

Visu labu,

The following two folk songs are from a collection arranged by Elza Kokare and her book “Nāc, Dieviņ, līdz ar mani”. The collector did not make interpretations of content, but lifted the folk songs from the archives as entered there. I believe the relationship of Jānis to the Sun in these verses is not only more obvious than that of God, but conclusively so. This is why I have substituted the name of Jānis-Jānīts for Dievs-Dieviņš.

Pļauj deviņi pļāvējiņi
Zelta kalna galiņā.
Laid, Jānīti, zelta trepes,
Lai es nesu launadziņu.
LD 27 833, 4

Jōnīts bride rudzu lauku
Ar palāku mētelīti;
Met, pļovēja, zalta skustu
Zam Jōnīša kōjeņom.
LTdz. 2265

It may interest the reader that “skusts”, here meaning “cross” originally referred to a shawl that women wrapped cross-wise about a sacred stone. The tradition is still observed in Belorussia.

Oh yes, I understand now!!!!!!!
Its like that ‘religion’ Scientology; the one that science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard began.............

Disa~
I think i’m losing track here............who are you comparing to
Ron L’s renegades?

DisaW,
You are of course comparing, mixing, and dissing Latvian folklore and the more profound spiritual knowledge and imagery that is behind it with Scientology. That is the first time that I have seen anyone make that kind of comparison. There is certainly nothing of the sort in the material that I am presenting the readers here with. You kind of miss the point of being an heir to Latvian spiritual inheritance and history.

I would invite any Latvians who still reads folk verses/songs (tautas dziesmas) to read, search, and study them in the context of mismatched Gods. I will be happy to add them to my collection. Here is another one:

Pieguļnieki, bāleliņi,
Vai ir visi kumeliņi?
Es redzēju Jāņa suni,
Kumeļkāju valkājot.
Ltdz 6044

Well, my dear sirs;
I come by this conclusion merely for which has been stated;

The real Latvian “Jānis” has been profoundly repressed by what I call the neo-Christian church. This repression is founded by calling “Jānis Eve” celebrations a pagan tradition. I am a follower of Anatoly Fomenko’s view of history, which is--in a few words--that we can only believe (and then only to a degree) history since about the 17th century, all former history having been falsified by the neo-Christian Council of Trent and the new chronology of history invented by Scaligeri and his followers. [A. Fomenko’s book “History: Fiction of Science” can be bought on the Amazon site. I especially recommend Vol. 2.]

*Which leads me to believe you are incorporating mythology and religion.
Correct?*

I am of the belief that neo-Christianity was preceded by arch-Christianity (senkristietība), the symbol of which was the cross formed by the rays of the Sun and not by the cross of the crucifixion. Jānis belongs to the arch-Christian tradition. He was a most important God in the mythology of the Balts (now dismissed as ‘never happened’), because he was believed to be the son of the Sun (not God), and because--as I argue in a forthcoming book--it is he from whom Jesus borrows the self-sacrificial God motif. Unfortunately, Jesus is later removed to Heaven, from whence he can only look down on events on Earth without effect; but Jānis loses his son of the Sun symbolism (something of an Everyman) and becomes a vagabond, who makes a forelorn return to his neighborhood to pass a lot of water and move on.
A chapter of my forthcoming book can be found by searching for Latvianjanis at Google. In the course of time more chapters will appear at my site. [The entire book may eventually appear as an ebook, but no final decision has yet been made regarding the accessibility of it in its entirety.] A “Janis reawakening” ceremony is planned for this year’s Janis Eve at my Janis Temple in the making.
You may also look into a book called Jāņu Fotoalbums, published by Norden AB, 2006. It shows in pictures the process (in the course of 100 years) of the gradual urbanization of the Jānis story and its “prettyfication” to please the romantic notions of our time. Incidentally, I hope you do not interpret my view of Jānis as my being against Christianity. I am a Christian who shares in its more ancient vision.

*Like L. Ron Hubbard, whom was not of a ministry- created his own place of worship for his beliefs and followers, not commonly regarded by most*

Now, I present to you my question- of what religion would you consider Janis Temple?
Pagan, mythology, science?

DisaW. The question that you really seem to be asking is whether anyone other than a neo-Christian has a claim to religion. I frankly do not know more about Scientology than what I read in the newspapers, one of which is that a Holywood movie star is its member, but that the Germans would like to outlaw it if they have not done so already. I don’t believe they claim to be part of Christianity. Of course, anyone can click “Scientology” on their internet search button and find out more, including that a science fiction writer names Hubbard was its founder.

As for the religion of Latvians, the neo-Christians call it a “pagan” religion, that is, it was thought to be of the lower classes, the peasants, by their German overlords. There is quite a bit of evidence that the Balts had a very profound religion of their own, but they had no written language to write it down with, but passed it on through an oral tradition. That is what the 2 million folk verses/songs are about. The Latvian Dievturi is a religious movement going back to the 1920s, and they have done a lot to help Latvians keep their identity. My argument with them is that they have neglected Jānis, which is why their religion, which is folklore based, fails in the kind of immediacy that neo-Christianity preaches to the poor and despairing. There is however enough evidence--if you are willing to look at it--that Jesus did not have a monopoly on God, but that Jānis (yes, including John the Baptist) preceded him in equal capacity, i.e., Jānis-John was not a forerunner of Jesus and bore no lesser sacrifice. Jānis-John was a collective, so to speak, as the Latvian festival “Jāņi” (plural) shows. Incidentally, there were also women who share in the name. The French Joan of Ark most likely belonged to the arch-Christian movement, but was burned at the stake as a heretic for it. The “heresy” was mostly that arch-Christians were multi-culturally oriented, while neo-Christians wanted and for a while got a monopoly of Christianity for themselves.

jandžs et all.,

Here is a daina where both ,God and Janis ,are mentioned:

Kas tā tāda liela pile tai celiņa maliņā ?
Tai pilei triji vārti, visi triji sudrabiņa:
Pa vieniem DIEVS iebrauca, pa otriem Mīļā MĀRA,
Pa trešiem Jānīts brauca div´ dzelteni kumeliņi.

32614 Dzirciema Tk.

According to you, where is the substitution of God for Janis in this daina ?

Visu labu,

Pa vieniem Dievs iebrauca, pa otriem mīļā Māra,
Pa trešiem Jānīts brauca div´ dzelteni kumeliņi.
32614 Dzirciema Tk.

The God called “Dievs” is a neo-Christian introduction. This is not to say that God did not exist among Balts, however, the God was Gods among whom the main God was a Goddess and was Saule, the Sun.

Pa vieniem Saule brauca, pa otriem mīļā Māra,
Pa trešiem Jānīts brauca div’dzelteni kumeliņi.

The fact that Jānits drives in a cart pulled by two yellow horses certainly points to the “color” of the Sun.[

Folklore, mythological figure, of a religion or non;

I simply think its a wonderful celebration to kick back and give thanks for it all.

jantžs et al.,

“The God called “Dievs” is a neo-Christian introduction. This is not to say that God did not exist among Balts, however, the God was Gods among whom the main God was a Goddess and was Saule, the Sun.

Pa vieniem Saule brauca, pa otriem mīļā Māra,
Pa trešiem Jānīts brauca div’dzelteni kumeliņi.

The fact that Jānits drives in a cart pulled by two yellow horses certainly points to the “color” of the Sun.”

Now you are trying to obfuscate the fact that your claim was that Dievs is the substitute for John.  Now you are saying that Dievs is a substitute for Sun.  Well, in that instance, John still comes in third .

Really, such sophomoric attempts. How old are you?

Visu labu,