To Kristine

I found this particular statement of yours a bit shocking:
“I will quote another section of the katechisms, page 11.: Kadas vainas kristigajai ticibai?
Kristiga ticiba ir celusies no zidiem un mums vaciesu uzspiesta--ta nesaderas ar zinatni, tautibu un latvietibu. ( What’s wrong with Christianity? Christianity began with the Jews and was forced upon us by the Germans---it does not fit with knowledge, nationality and being Latvian) Brastins gives much more history on this than I can post here “

A bit blatantly anti-semitic don’t you think? It’s the Jews and the Germans fault, and this is what’s wrong with Christianity?
Knowlede, nationality and being Latvian? That supports my earlier determination that Latvians put Nationalism before a God, and the Dievturiba version convienently fits into it, not the other way around.
Of course Christianity began with the Jews, Jesus Christ was born as a Jew which so many anti -semites (like Brastins ) had totally ignored over the centuries what with their pogroms and holocausts. The bible include both the new and the old testaments, It is linked to a Judaic past, and is leading to salvation for all that accept Jesus. Dievturiba sounds nice and folksy and convenient, but not a road to salvation.

You didn’t answer this part of my question: “What will Dievturiba do to help a prostitute in Prague, a drug addict in New York, a depressed person in Canada, a person who has given up life in South Africa?”
I know the answer is NOTHING. But why skirt around it? Because you know it only serves a Latvian Nationalistic purpose and no one else in this world. Jesus does and has helped all of these types of human sufferings.

And to Bruno the Lett

“I do see that you have narrowed your beliefs in Jesus a little.”

My answer is YES, THANK GOD!

“So you think that telling you believe in Jesus makes you a christian ?  Jews believe in Jesus, moslems and mormons believe in Jesua too”

Hmmmm lets see “Jesus Christ” “Christian” What else would make you a CHRISTian?
Jews believe in Jesus? Yes the original Jewish apostles like Paul and Peter did, other than that current Jewish followers don’t acknowledge him as their “messiah” and don’t speak of him. You don’t know this? Do you really think Jews believe in Jesus? ( although there is at least one group that do, they’re called Jews for Jesus, other than that group, they don’t acknowledge Jesus at all, but will one day )

Muslims believe that Jesus is a prohpet of God not the son of God, but see Mohammed as a prophet above Jesus. So while they include him in their Koran, they distort the true identity of Christ. They also claim he didn’t die on the cross, I’m not sure which of their writers made that up. So to me, there teaching is a false teaching.

Mormoms? Sorry haven’t looked it up, but I know that the “book of mormom” includes writings by their founder John Wesley as well as text from the new testament. The new testament doesn’t need any additional writing. It says everything you need to know. Not sure why his ego was so great that he felt God’s word needed his help.

Ikabods Ozols et al.,

It is belief in the Trinity that makes one as a christian.  Do you believe in the Trinity ?  What “sect” do you belong to ?  An ex-atheist straight to the Bible as the literal word of God ?

Visu labu,

Ikabod--

Whatever you believe in will help you.

To Bruno
Yes, I believe in the Trinity.
I don’t belong to a “sect” which I interpret to mean denomination. I’ve tried to avoid sects and try to study the word of God through various writers, speakers , documentaries and listen to what many have to say. I pay attention to that which makes sense to me and stays in line with the words I find in the Bible. Denominations tend to water down the Bible’s true meaning by bickering about their own specific interpretation, or even going to war about it like Catholics vs Protestants have done for centuries, all in the name of God supposedly. I’m not interested in that.

An ex - atheist straight to the Bible as the literal word of God makes it sound like it happened overnight and is not true in my case. I’ve been studying the Bible and other biblical writings, pro and con, for more than 17 years now, and I was a staunch atheist for the 10 years prior to that. It was the Bible itself that converted me as I began to understand it’s meaning, and ultimately has led me to believe that the Bible as the literal word of God through the revelations I received. Seek and ye shall find.

Visu labi, tev ari.

You have seen the light, Ikabod...................................why does it matter to you what anybody else believes in?

Good question Pete,
why does it matter to me what anyone else believes?

It didn’t start out as a question about what I believe, more a question about what Latvian society, believes. I was curious to know what our “tautiesi” believe. 

But to answer your question, why does it matter?

It’s a matter of love.  I love Latvian people, I love the society. I really do understand the beauty of our culture which has it’s roots in music, poetry and dance. These are the things that define us a a nation. No doubt about it.

Some of the respondants have suggested these things that define us are also our national “religion” ( i.e. Dievturiba ) To this, I can’t agree,it’s nothing more than paganism. None of the respondants have been able to say how Dievturiba can help human suffering in .. whichever part of the world you chose to suggest… like the USA for example. ( in general the Dievturiba proponents have dropped out of the debate, because they can’t answer the questions I proposed,)

It matters because I care.

My personal belief is that every person can come to salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. Is this important? To me, yes it is. To others… Your choice.. right?

Why does it matter? My experience suggests that Latvians on the whole don’t know much about Jesus Christ. They give lip servivce to some sort of faith in general, then suddenlly you find in these forums a very stout defense of Dievturiba, and worse anti semitism in the form that Christianity can’t be any good because it originated with the Jews. (read the thread)

Latvians need to be saved, that is of course from my perspective. But it’s why it matters to me. I Love them..

By the way, it’s not about being Latvian, it’s a “human"experience". Accept Jesus as your peronal Saviour and life will change for the better.Jesus comes first, then if you choose comes Latvianism. Need assistance in this? Write back.

To wrap it up for Pete, it matters to me, because I care about those that I Love. I believe that faith in Jesus offers salvatiion and eternal life. Why keep it to myself?

By the way Pete, have you seen the light?
What light lights your path?

You are so intrusive, Ika.................but if you insist, life lights my path.

Ikabod~
I checked your long post and saw why you are not finding many
answers here.........you already know everything.

happy New Year!

It was splendor in the winter sun out in God’s country where woods are dark and deep and at night the stars in the sky displayed the mysteries of science that wait to be solved. Btw, Pedro, I didn’t need any light to see my way. I have walked the woods in the dark without a flashlight since I’ve been nine, Indjun style. I know, I know, kids love to be proud owners of flashlights, but I preferred to be bold and brave, like our Latvian ancestors more than 800 years ago. {:~)

Now that I am back, I hope that Father Christmas and Ziemassvētku vecītis was good to all of you boys and girls. I did get a chance to re-read, without any angst, Skalbes “Kaķīšu dzirnavas,” a childhood favorite of mine that got me believing. I put a lot of faith into that little book, as I also did into the “Kriksis” series of human dog stories.

We are now in a new year, anno domini: The year of our Lord two thousand and eight. Cheers yeh all!

As I’m catching up on my reading, as both, Ika and snik, while a lost cause with Latvian history, appeal to their faith in Christian Bible fables. It’s like Ika’s observation, “… basis of dievturiba are folk verses or dainas.” There is nothing wrong with that, it works both ways, lots of kids believe in fables. It’s part of maturing and growing up. Besides Dievturība is lot closer to science via its cosmological and biological ties with the nature of things. In Christianity you ride the brakes when it comes to science. It’s as in Shakespeare’s Hamlet where he held the skull and said “Alas, poor Galileo!”

~*~

Ika ~ I once knew a German fellow called Ikabod. There’s a long story to that, but he preferred Iki as opposed your corrected Ika. But, so be it, I’ll take your wish into consideration, you’ll be Ika on this faithful forum.

I hate say this but your approach to the participants on LOL scares the hell out of me. Especially when you fail to convince and you persist to batter away no matter what anyone says. My guess is that you must have flunked charm school. That makes you a poor representative of Jesus, lacking in tact and diplomacy. These were some of the characteristics that Christ possessed and in all likelihood he would be quite disappointed in the way you carry on. It’s the old snake-oil salesmanship Elmer Gantry style and the know-it-all attitude that fails to score points for Christianity – Lions 10: Christians 0. Religion does not differ much from politics where it has its do-or-die zealots that hang on to both ends of the same spectrum rather than follow reason and sensible arguments that we would expect among civilized people. You retort to loaded words and nonchalant dismissal of the participant comments, which is akin to the popular methods used in propaganda even nowadays. It is actually quite difficult to communicate with individuals that have a mind set and are not receptive to new ideas.

Btw, Dievturība is a modern word used to describe the ancient Latvian tribal religion, which has its source in the Baltic tribal religion, hence derived from Indo European religion. It’s real old!

~*~

Despite your “pro and con” biblical reading, how come you found that: “While at the moment, i profess some difficulty in trying to re-read it again to form my response, I think it’s safe to say that it omits Jesus in the philosophy of Dievturiba, is that right? If it does, I have a problem with it.”

You are correct in that Dievturība, as such does not include Jesus in its way of life. It should not have come as a surprise. After all Dievturība was created several millennia before Jesus was born and made part of history by mankind. They already had a good thing going. As such, Dievturība did not need any of the paraphernalia – hell, limbo, dogmas, sin, atonement, redemption, salvation, et cetera. It is believed to have been timed with Kabbalah, which was the source of the Old Testament. The Jewish stories in the Kabbalah were based from oral history, much like the Latvian Dainas are a source of Latvian oral history. While keeping an open mind try to read those two Dievturība articles again. The two article authors to help your memory denial are Amanda Jātniece and Tupešu Jānis. You’ll find, as you say, “… trying to re-read it again to form my response …” not so difficult at all. It’s like mind over matter.

~*~

Btw, there needs to be no pretense Ika, “Ivars Graudins says: Sounds likd [sic] Ika [sic] an snik have been out of the loop as far as Latvian history is concerned. Call it culturally alienated. Then later, the “ Latvian god is much older and wiser than the Christian god.” ( i enjoyed this poorly veiled snipe at me and snik who are asking honest questions, what does that have to do with “culture “ or worse the “Latvian god”.... what’s his name Ivars?)”

As far as “what does that have to do with “culture” …“ it shows that you are clueless about the history of Latvian traditions and beliefs and “… or worse the “Latvian god”.... what’s his name Ivars?” “Dievs” was at your eyeball-level all along if you cared to notice, and also “dieviņš.” It’s the same intelligent designer for all humanity.

(To be continued …)

You are so right Ivarius..............no need for candle , since there
always is a light somewere in nature, even in the middle of night.
Good to hear from you.  Prieciigu Gadmiji!

(… continued)

Honestly, if in your innocence you were merely “asking honest questions,” you would not have made thoughtless comments and poorly worded pronouncements, the loaded language kind, to discredit Latvians and some of the LOL participants, spectator and Bruno, who made honest comments. Consider how quickly you tried twist the mention of Jews and Germans into a Latvian anti-Semitism issue. That’s false judgmentalism, a contradiction of your own convictions. You merely knocked them without even trying to understand what is being stated. This does not demonstrate your trustworthiness to Latvians and your excessive endearment to the word love.

~*~

Ika once more demonstrates his undivided devotion, exceeding even that of the Pope: “Im [sic] my opinion, the Christian bible is the literal word of God.” Tell us how did it come to be the literal word of God? Sounds like bibliolatry. To which biblical version do you owe your inerrancy?

I will not hold it against you, but after your 17-years of studying the Bible and thus taking the “literal word of God,” how come you fell for the oldest trick in the book that Bruno posed to you? You responded: “Yes, I believe in the Trinity.” Which version of the Bible are you studying? At what point do you consider the Bible, as you say, “watered down”? or should I say complete and unabridged? There is no such word as “Trinity in the old or new testament! Trinity is a doctrine, not a part of the Bible, used to explain the indwelling of three persons: the father, the son and the holy spirit. Stick with the Bible as it does not contradict (or does it?), “The Lord our God is one Lord.”

~*~

Ika wonders if he walks alone: “To Graudins, so what if Latvian pagan beliefs existed longer than the Christian God made it’s [sic] way to Latvia? God has his own timing. In the meantime, the old latvians had to guess at something, didn’t they?”

Using your rhetoric, the Christian God did not have to make his, as you say “… it’s [sic] way to Latvia.” He was there as a god to begin with. There was no guessing game going on. The Christian leadership and its underlings did not want to recognize that. Perhaps you mean the arrival of Saxon Christian mercenary crusaders under Bishop Berthold and later Bishop Albert. It took them a hundred years to slaughter 350,000 children, women and men from the various none nationalistic minded Latvian tribes whose loyalty rested with family, relatives, friends and the rest of the tribe in that order. That was more than 50% of the total population murdered. It well exceeded the crimes committed by Stalin and Hitler combined and all in the name of the Christian god. The fact that Līvi, Kurši, Zemgaļi, Sēļi, Latgaļi and Atdzeļi were not nationalistic but rather committed to patriarchal families made them unprepared for the Christian cruelty. Hence, history shows that the Latvian people spent about 7-1/2 centuries under the oppression of their Christian masters. Hallelujah!

Perhaps Latvians were more fortunate than the Old Baltic Prussians against the Christian crusaders. Historian Arnolds Spekke writes: “These 23 years of war … the ensuing agony, followed by succession of convulsions – the result of ruthless cruelty, - ferocious and desperate resistance … conflagrations up to the year 1295, are among the most tragic pages of world history. The Old Prussian leaders, among them Munthe … were killed one after the other (Glape, Linke, Divan). Then peace came – the peace of a graveyard. The entire population of five Old Prussian provinces was exterminated; this region ceased to be inhabited and the woods began to grow again. Ex tunc terra prussiae quivit in pace, concludes the chronicler.” The Old Prussians already had the same god, as did we all. And, all this was in the name of Christ!

Shame on you. You should have done your homework, at least on the Latvians, if you want to be a successful religious peddler. {:~)

~*~

I learned long, long time ago, that religious hope is not a method in context of science. We have come a long way in science since the time Christianity was frozen in concrete. Today people are educated and are not driven as much by fear, especially the artificial fears created by the various writers who wikipediated the Bible and the supporting documents together based on hearsay and after the fact information. The uneducated masses needed something like that to keep them out of mischief and console them in bereavement. That fact that we need to connect with god, taken my view of Deism, can be brushed aside in the interest of greater social good, but not at their expense.

Blind faith is a copout, an excuse to evade thinking and evaluating evidence. Worse still is that the rest of us are supposed to respect faith, even if they are fables. I can respect your views if you can justify them, but merely by saying you have faith in them, there is no reason to respect them.

Taking Ika to heart, I’ll lovingly add my bit to his love series: God is love, don’t you believe in love? Sure do! Right, then you believe in God.

~*~

In a nutshell conclusion, Ika’s post # 21 is just a lot of nonsense with “loaded language.” Some 45 years ago in my military science studies I was fortunate to have studied “Thought Reform and Brainwashing” to prepare us for the Vietnam War. The book that I used has a chapter on the web. I would encourage folks to read it – milieu control, mystical manipulation, demand for purity, cult of confession, sacred science, loading the language, doctrine over person, dispensing of existence—and draw their own conclusions.

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism – Robert Jay Lifton
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html

Lovingly and caringly, Ivars

Hello ikabod,I’m a bit confused, if god could save the beggar sat on a street in Latvia then why is the beggar still sat there ..

To Ivars,
Suffice it to say that we agree to disagree.  A final retort, as I can see you are set in your understanding of things, I suppose we can can go back and forth til Jesus returns. I’ll ignore the comments where you simply sought to insult me, and move on to:

“Consider how quickly you tried twist the mention of Jews and Germans into a Latvian anti-Semitism issue. That’s false judgmentalism, a contradiction of your own convictions. You merely knocked them without even trying to understand what is being stated.”

“What’s wrong with Christianity? Christianity began with the Jews and was forced upon us by the Germans---it does not fit with knowledge, nationality and being Latvian) Brastins gives much more history on this than I can post here “

If I am reading it correctly, it’s says What’s wrong with Christianinty? Christianity began with the Jews. Lets leave the Germans out for a second. Because Christianity began with the Jews, that makes it wrong? Sounds a bit pre WWII to me.

“Besides Dievturība is lot closer to science via its cosmological and biological ties with the nature of things. In Christianity you ride the brakes when it comes to science”

If your faith in Christ is non existant, or has come to a halt, then it’s you who have put on the brakes. Science, doesn’t really matter to me, my brakes are not engaged, I am learning more and more every day about my faith.

“Btw, Dievturība is a modern word used to describe the ancient Latvian tribal religion, which has its source in the Baltic tribal religion, hence derived from Indo European religion. It’s real old!
After all Dievturība was created several millennia before Jesus was born and made part of history by mankind”

OK, so I’ll profess my ignorance of Latvian history in this regard, exactly how many millenia does dievturiba go back? Jesus was here in the beginning, before the world was formed. I think that was before Latvia existed as a place.

“Im [sic] my opinion, the Christian bible is the literal word of God.” Tell us how did it come to be the literal word of God? Sounds like bibliolatry. To which biblical version do you owe your inerrancy? “

It always was the literal word of God, I just came to understand that fact later in life.

“ will not hold it against you, but after your 17-years of studying the Bible and thus taking the “literal word of God,” how come you fell for the oldest trick in the book that Bruno posed to you? You responded: “Yes, I believe in the Trinity.” Which version of the Bible are you studying? There is no such word as “Trinity in the old or new testament! Trinity is a doctrine, not a part of the Bible, used to explain the indwelling of three persons: the father, the son and the holy spirit.”

Noted there is no such word as Trinity in the Bible. And yes, it’s a doctrine brought about by the study of the Bible.  The primary references are ( KJV ) Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was speaking to the apostles “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” , Locating God as the Father in multiple places in the Bbibe is not so difficult, like “Our Father which art in heaven”. Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, many times.  The apostles refer to the Holy Spirit as a Person in Acts, The spirit inspires scripture , is lied to, bears witness, directs, is resisted, informs, commands, and reveals prophetic truth etc.

Yes, it’s a doctrine that I believe.

“Perhaps you mean the arrival of Saxon Christian mercenary crusaders under Bishop Berthold and later Bishop Albert. It took them a hundred years to slaughter 350,000 children, women and men from the various none nationalistic minded Latvian tribes whose loyalty rested with family, relatives, friends and the rest of the tribe in that order. That was more than 50% of the total population murdered. It well exceeded the crimes committed by Stalin and Hitler combined and all in the name of the Christian god. The fact that Līvi, Kurši, Zemgaļi, Sēļi, Latgaļi and Atdzeļi were not nationalistic but rather committed to patriarchal families made them unprepared for the Christian cruelty. Hence, history shows that the Latvian people spent about 7-1/2 centuries under the oppression of their Christian masters. Hallelujah! “

True, the history of Christianity is full of the blood of innocents. But… these were not people who were following Christ. Christ said Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek. Simply because men carry a cross, and have the power and might of a mid-evil church army, didn’t make them Christians.  That made them poor representative of Jesus, lacking in any moral fiber. God said vengence is mine, and what you sow you shall reap. They will have their place in hell no doubt. What they did was take advantage of a situation that gave them power, and they were brutal, not followers of Christ. Similar to Islam in the 7th century, and now in this century. Only thing is, Mohammed was a warrior, and death by the sword is their doctrine. The true believers of Islam are currently blowing themselves up.

Tell me where Jesus says slaughter the innocents?

“Blind faith is a copout, an excuse to evade thinking and evaluating evidence”

I used to think blind faith was a copout, until I studied the bible, and thought about what I read, and the bible provided enough evidence for me to believe what it says.

continued

To Ivars continued

“Worse still is that the rest of us are supposed to respect faith, even if they are fables. I can respect your views if you can justify them, but merely by saying you have faith in them, there is no reason to respect them.”

I don’t care if you respect my faith, it doesn’t change my faith in Jesus as Lord and Saviour.  Lions 10, Christians 0.... Christians win salvation, Lions slaughtered. You want want what? Proof? God to throw down a million dollars at your feet every time you ask for it? You can’t justify your views of Dievturiba to me either, really all you’re saying is that you have faith in them.

Anyway, one day 17 years ago, I said to myself before I reject Christianity, I will read the Bible. Once I started I haven’t been able to stop, and don’t want to.

Have you read the Bible from beginning to end? If so, how long ago?

And to Terry regarding that Latvian beggar.  It’s starts w other Christians & Christian charity, I know I saw churches in Latvia, but wasn’t there long enough to find out if some of the churches had Christian outreach programs, like soup kitchens, shelters and dedicated servants of God who went out of their way to find that beggar.  If so, Jesus is in Latvia too.