About that whole Ulmanis should have stood up to the Russians…

As I wrote earlier nothing Ulmanis could have done would have made a difference against the Russians. That’s not really the issue. The issue is that considering the stature that Ulmanis enjoys today you would have thought he saved the Latvian people from a fate worse than death. Ultimately he didn’t. The lesson here is not about the futility of trying, but about the simple truth that if you give someone extraordinary powers they’d better deliver extraordinary results. I don’t believe in extraordinary deeds therefore if someone suggests giving extraordinary powers to a single individual in a democracy I need some more proof. Otherwise, why bother?
And as to dotting the Is and corrosing the Ts. Regardless of whether you believe in small government or big government or any shades in between, isn’t the dotting and the crossing what governments are all about? Governments are about the rule of law and law is all about precission. Otherwise, again, why bother?

Andrejs, the centrist nihilist anarchist

Posted: 17 May 2007 05:45 AM post 25

Do you Peter C remember this post? To me anything different means “to fight” and the implications are there that you wanted something different. You don’t have to play “what-if” for the fate of the Baltics was determined when the Germans and Russians signed their pact. I had posted the question on a military site “If England and France signed a mutual aid pact with Poland, why did they not declare war on Russia when it invaded Poland”? It took a while but as all agreements, they have exceptions and this one was that it would only help defend if attacked from the West. This was because there was a state of war between Poland and Lithuania and they did not want to get involved so Russia got a free hand. At the beginning of 1940 there was a huge Russian presence at Lithuanian’s Southern border cutting off any aid or escape route from Europe.
Now let us look at Estonia and some events before Estonia was annexed by Soviet Union.
1. 19. Jan. 1938 at 14.00 group of Soviet border guards passed Estonian borderline on the ice of frozen Lake Peipus and open fire to Estonian border guards. Finally two Russians were killed. Russia lay the blame on Estonia – Estonia attacking Soviet Union.
2. 08. Feb. 1938 at 16.00 same kind of situation on the Lake Peipus. In this battle Estonian border guards feldwebel Artur Pungas, kapral (gefreiter) Voldemar Kaio and guard Vassili Eva were killed. After the battle a bodies of Estonians were pulled to the Russian side of the border. Next day an official commission was called do watch the results of Estonian attack against Soviet Union.
3. Easter day of 1939. On the South East border of Estonia, (open field and good visibility) after 2 days of preparation, Soviet Army starting improvised attack to Estonian border with cavalry and tanks. They stopping about 0,5 meters from borderline.
4. 13. Sept. 1939 a Polish submarine “Orzel” coming to port of Tallinn and being interned by Estonian army. Submarine tanking fuels and for sick commander was given medical assistant. In the midnight 17. - 18. Sept. 1939 “Orzel” leaving port of Tallinn (officially “escaping”). In this case Russian government decelerating about weakness of Estonia in the securing of Baltic sea and default of good will do to it.
5. 17. Sept. 1939 Soviet Navy and Bomb planes crossing Estonian border on the many places and several times.
6. 26. Sept. 1939 Large number of Soviet bomb planes were fling over the center of Tallinn on the low altitude.
7. 27. Sept. 1939 Soviet government declares about drowning a Soviet merchantman “Metalist” by Estonian submarine or Estonians supported Polish submarine. This was a lie. For corroboration they managed do transport to the coastline by Narva some life buoys from “Metalist”.
8. 10. Dec. 1939 Soviet sumbmarine torpedoes a Estonian merchantman „Kassari“ not far from Estonian island Hiiumaa (Dagö). Crew in the life-boat was shot by mashinegun of Soviet sumbmarine.
9. 02. Feb. 1940 Soviet Navy opening fire to Estonian warplane near the gulf of Tallinn (Estonian territorial water). One person was wounded.
10. 14. June 1940 Estonian passanger plane JU-52, flieng on the line Tallinn – Helsinki was shot down by 3 Soviet fighter I-16 near of Estonian island Keri. Nobody from passangers and crew was survived.
11. 15. June 1940 Smalle ship belonged to Estonian Navy (Used for transporting a president) was captured by Red Navy on the Gulf of Finland and taken to Kronstat. Estonian crew commanded by captain J. Klaar was taken to prisoners.
12. 16. June 1940 Estonian passanger ship „Estonia“ operating on the line Tallinn – Stockholm – Tallinn was arrested by Red Navy.
And then we have Latvia with a new Russian railroad line from Moscow to the Latvian border with 5 Russian divisions on the border.
We have not even touched the Russian Navy in the Baltic Sea yet.
“ Sadly, trying to discuss these things with such as you is worse than trying to debate the most virulent of Russkies. “
Thank you for the compliment. I hope that you and I never agree on all things for that would mean nothing to think about but I will not hold my breath and wait till you see it my way. This last Memorial Day in the USA I drove to New Amsterdam (New York City to some, it is still that Dvinsk thing) and then to Braļi Kapi in Tannersville, N.Y. for a memorial service. http://www.latvianmemorialpark.org/ is their new website just started.
As I walked among the markers, I gave thought to the fact that there are people that question their loyalty or beliefs that had brought them to this place.
This commentary about one’s opinion about Ulmanis can go on forever for either you hate him or you agree with him or stradle the fence. Since I am a believer that true history can not begin to truly be written until all the participants are dead and several years after that so that word of mouth cannot influence your thought. Today we can only write about memories that will be used by future historians that will try to disect them for facts.
I would like to say Vysu Labu but I can not find the word Vysu in any Latvian Dictionary that I have so I will say Visu Labu

Andrejs et al.,

Extraordinary powers were granted ambassador K. Zarins to represent Latvia in the event that the government ceases to function due to war conditions.  It represents the cornerstone of all subsequent activity of latvians abroad up until the regaining of independence.

My admiration for K. Ulmanis is mainly for his contribution to the founding of Latvia as an independent nation.

As you point out, nothing Ulmanis could do would have made a difference against the russian invasion.
But that was not unique to Latvia.  One can take what Daina Bleiere writes , substitute Estonia or Lithuania for Latvia, and her story sounds very much the same.

Visu labu,

Bruno, sometimes you go with my thought and sometimes you don’t. It reinforces the thought of 3 Latvians 5 political parties (or churches). You also remind me of the time the Latvian Youth festival was asked not to return to Chicago in the late 60’s when the chandalier fell in the lobby of the Chicago Hilton when several people were celebrating by swinging from it. Then there was the several people who while taking a tour of Lake Michigan were rescued by the Chicago shore patrol after jumping overboard to see how warm the water was. This has been a fun filled life remembered by being kicked out of a hotel in Cleavland for continuing to celebrate after 3 AM or having to drink „Black Horse Ale” (Piss I think and do not ask how I know) in Boston. I think if I follow your line of thought , you would have been in the middle with me.
Life is a bitch and regardless of opinion it will go on.

courlander et al.,

At one of the song festivals in L.A., a couch was dropped from one of the upper levels of the hotel into the street. below.

Visu labu,
(P.S.  I am off to Latvia next week to spend some time there.)

Would it be worth starting a new thread about “Latvijas telu spodrinasanas-tagadne un pagatne”?
These last posts have jarred loose some latent memories of the past, and some of the “shining” moments I have witnessed, not to mention the ones I have regretfully been party to, acting out my adolescent geopolitical and sexual frustrations riding on a surge of booze and hormone induced socializing known in various guises as ALJA Kongress/Dziesmu Svetki/utt back in the Halcyon days of trickle-down Reaganomics!

Courlander wrote:

To me anything different means “to fight” and the implications are there that you wanted something different.

There are countless variations between mounting a suicidal military defense and saying “welcome, Soviet friends!” There’s embarking upon “a political and diplomatic battle for Latvia’s sovereignty,” there’s the possibility of telling the truth to one’s people, there’s the chance of forming a government in exile, etc. And again, there were years in which to prepare for what happened in 1939/40. William Shirer wrote something like “I don’t understand why these little countries prefer to be swallowed one by one” (from memory, so the quote’s probably off), and that is indeed a question we should ask (analyzing the obstacles we know about, like the Polish-Lithuanian conflict). Why should we ask? Because our free country, currently not under threat, found it difficult to support Estonia a few weeks ago. Does anybody doubt that we’ll see a replay of the same ineptitude when we are again in crisis?

As I walked among the markers, I gave thought to the fact that there are people that question their loyalty or beliefs that had brought them to this place.

I don’t question the soldiers’ loyalty or beliefs—I question the decisions of those who sent them into battle. As I’ve pointed out before—Lithuania refused to form a Legion.

I would like to say Vysu Labu but I can not find the word Vysu in any Latvian Dictionary

“Vysu lobu” is Latgallian. You can find an online Latvīšu-latgaļu vuordineica here, though it’s very incomplete --

http://latgola.lv/voluda/vuordineicys/cyullatg.shtml

Visu labu,
/P

To answer you Peter , the Latvian government did try to prepare but this was not a one sided decision. With (peace in our time) Chamberlain still in power in England (Churchill didn’t gain power until May 1940) , France waiting for the battle, and Roosevelt listening to the isolationists , there was no aid to look for from the west.
On May 17, 1940 late evening at a secret meeting, the Latvian government “In case of emergency “ full power was given to Kārlis Zariņš, the Latvian Minister in London and Alfred Bilmanis, Latvian Minister to Washington was designated as his substitute. Then all of Latvia’s gold and silver was secretly shipped to neutral Sweden, then to England and then to the USA. Both Stalin and Hitler demanded the return but was refused. England did some in the late 60’s or 70s’ , I can’t remember exact, return the silver held in London.
The Latvian Army had drawn up a plan to defend Latvia if attacked from the East (it is shown at the War Museum) and if they had to retreat they would first ask Lithuania for permission and if denied then they would still go through to Germany. The Russian attack and occupation of Polish territory stopped that idea and unlike some other leader, Ulmanis stayed with his people.
I don’t question the soldiers’ loyalty or beliefs—I question the decisions of those who sent them into battle. As I’ve pointed out before—Lithuania refused to form a Legion.
This is a myth that has us arguing about flycrap in a bottle of pepper.
Drafted Latvians were led by German leaders and the Lithuanians were slow thinkers for when they realized that the Russians are coming back they did form a group and many of them already had joined the German Army individually (they were not drafted). The question of them not having a Legion is moot for they did fight the Russians and the results were the same for all three countries. I still am having a problem following your line of thought for you wanted Ulmanis to be defiant but you question the defiance of the Legionnaire for fighting the Russians. I hope you have groin protection while trying to straddle that fence.

A description of this about the Lithuanians.
http://www.feldgrau.com/lith.html

You quote Shirer who is a book writer to me. Although he wrote about what he saw, his weak spot is that he was not privy to all the happenings at that time so his books can only be used as references by historians who now have a more larger collection of facts. His writings have to much of his personality in them. I believe that true history about WWII will come out in about 2045, when all the innuendos will be forgotten.