Vai ārzemju latviešu sabiedrība un tās skolas ir pietiekami lielas, lai apmierinātu dažādās motivācijas un iekļautu visu vecāku prasības? Ja nē, vai ārzemju latviešu sabiedrība ir pietiekami stipra, lai ignorētu pusi no vecāku prasībām un sūdzībām?

Pirmkārt, nē—svešatnes latvju skolas nav pietiekami lielas lai apmierinātu daudzpusīgu motivāciju un itin visas vecāku prasības.  No pieredzes protu teikt, ka mācības fīzikā un matemātikā ir itseviški trūcīgas ārzemju latviešu skolās. 

Sakieti, lūdzu, iz kurienes Jūs raujat tādu statistiku, kas liecina ka pilnīgi puse no vecāku prasībām un sūdzibām tiek ignorētas.  Ir grūti ticēt, ka ir kāds latviešu skolas pārzinis kas absolūti nereaģē uz to, ko pieprasa vesela puse skolas saime.  Kādas ir šīs prasības?  Lūdzu—pamatojiet šo pārmetumu! Uzrādiet statistiku vai arī konkrētus piemērus šādai rīcībai.  Vēlos iepazīties ar hroniskām sūdzībām, ko latviešu skolas pārziņi it kā ignorē.

/R

Huh???  Fiziku un matematiku? Tu joko, jaa? To vareja macit Minstere, vidusskola, bet ne jau arzemju latviesu skolas! Nav tacu laika un nav valodas. Labi, ja berns var izboksteret latviesu alfabetu. Pat Ticibas maciba daudzas skolas vairs netiek pasniegta, jo macitajiem nav laika ari but skololotajiem un 3 stundu diena, reizi nedela, nevar visu piedavat.

Jautajums: Vecaki sudzas par??? Pienemu, ka atbilde ir sekojosa: Puse sudzas, ka macibas tiek ieklauta anglu valoda, nav labi latviski runajosi skolotaji ar macisanas pieredzi. Otra puse sudzas, ka vinu latviski nerunajosie berni tiek pamesti un ignoreti, ka ar bernu ir jaruna abas valodas, jo vins tacu latviski nesaprot! Ta darot, berns protams klausisies un ieveros to valodu, kas vinam tuvaka--tani gadijuma anglu.

Izveidot programmu, kas atbilst abu grupu vajadzibam un visiem pa vidu sagada lielas galvassapes.

Kapec sutit bernu latviesu skola? Tomer tas ir veids ka berns var iepazities ar citam latviesu gimenem un izveidot draudzibas starp vecakiem un berniem. Vai tas pietiek??

Times have changed! Education and learning have changed, despite the natural resistance to change. While education brings about change for the learning individual its scant change for the methodologies of learning. It’s like confronting a buffer force, mental friction or viscosity, if one may, towards accepting new methodologies, ideas and theories. Have you ever done repetitions of running up a steep hill? I mean really pushing it. How did it feel? Ever thought about improvising and finessing brute force unless you love the flow of adrenal? Let’s forget our mindsets of how we learned things Latvian decades ago during the one dedicated weekend day, call it Saturday, every week while the regular school season was in swing. Let’s discard the conventional and stereo type learning after all we are now living in the e-age. Learning should be integrated with the current state of technology, namely computers and the use of internet.

I recall sitting in the classes and listening to the teacher talk the whole hour long about certain historical episodes, geographic features or reciting the declensions that respond to questions like “kas, kā, kam, ko, ar ko, kur and the none question exclamation, the vocative.” “Those were the days may friend …” considering those times in the 1950s! Today most of that classroom sitting can be replaced with the new tools at hand. It may even be more fun than sitting in the classroom and listening with folded hands in front on the desk with an occasional distraction from the classroom pranksters.

Time is also limited and the teacher resources are scarce! Latvian school should be fun, something like a kaleidoscope. Kids come together more to reinforce what they have learned at home and to practice where they need to fill in the missing pieces. More important nowadays is to socialize and bond culturally and try out what they have learned that foster habits, attitudes and knowledge. Imagine sliding from pedagogy to andragogy as the Latvian kids shake the dependency to have the teacher think for them and hold their hand. It can be accomplished sooner rather then later.

Yes, it still takes supervision by a serious and dedicated parent to make sure the kids are learning and putting their time in to the lessons on CD or via internet. Some folks call that distance learning. It can even be interactive to make it more fun. Latvian schools seriously needs to be more than a drop off point while mom and dad go shopping on a Saturday.

Take the Latvian songs (pre-packed with a song book to boost) and have the kids listen to them at home and sing along at home. At school they can practice the same with the other kids while being already prepared. So it goes for Latvian language, literature, history, geography … eh, even arithmetic, mathematics, physics, chemistry, all internet based. As for the science type subjects, don’t we learn that latter stuff in local schools? Well yes, but the idea here is not as much to learn the laws and theories of science but to learn how do we say that in Latvian. The moans emanating out of Latvia are that we have too many folks focusing on those liberal art gut courses: political science, social science, economics, literature, languages et cetera. There’s nothing wrong with that except that Latvia is falling short on engineers, scientists and researchers. It’s a bit skewed.

To respond to the original post, the Latvian society outside of Latvia is huge and growing. It’s in the nomadic Latvian genes and globalization certainly activates those genes. Mark my words that every year 1/3 of the Latvian nation will return to Latvia to celebrate Jāņi, visit relatives and friends, and just for fun. We should not think of ourselves as scattered all over the planet and hence not being large enough to warrant attention from the Latvian government to foster Latvian via the e-age technology of distance learning. There should be learning modules that have something of interest and value for everyone and that will cover all the bases, or pragmatically so. Better still, the same learning modules could be used locally in Latvia and internationally where ever Latvians are located. With such a feasibility focus the Latvian government will get its bang for the buck or should I say a bang for the Lats and later on the Euro.

In a nutshell, the get together Latvian schools (once a week, twice a month, monthly, quarterly, semi-annually, summer sessions) need to refocus some of the old time grunt effort and practice cultural cohesion the androgogical way. We need more hands on, participative learning from and with others, Q&A;sessions with the teachers providing the guidance and keeping the learning on track. The idea is to bond with the Latvian culture through songs, folkdances, stories, histories or herstories and the language of our fathers and mothers.

Cheers, Ivars

Thank you , Ivar! Great points!

The problem, though, is “come together to reinforce what they have learned at home.” There are tons of kids attending Latvian school who aren’t learning anything much at home and Latvian school, in some parents eyes, is supposed to teach them everything. I know kids who never heard a Latvian folk song at home--parents did not speak Latvian and had no intention of learning themselves. But they brought their kids every week and paid the costs and brought snacks when they were supposed to.

The unanswered question is what do you do if you have a class of 5 kids, say, and 2 know very little Latvian, one is from Latvia and speaks perfectly and 2 are good trimda speakers. The parents of the first two say that you must not alienate our children or stress them by speaking only Latvian in class. The parents of the last two want you to only speak Latvian. The school has a total of 23 kids. Can you afford to lose the first two kids and their families? Can you afford to lose the last two kids and their families? Do you want to lose them? The kid from Latvia comes because his parents want him to learn ENGLISH!  How do you please everyone? You can’t afford a class of only two kids and you can’t put the two non-speakers in Kindergarten!

With such a small number, who are you supposed to please is the question that was posed and how are you supposed to do this.

Okay, I’ll play the devil’s advocate. What is the prerequisite to qualify for the serendipity Latvian school? Vai latviešu valodai ir jākūst kā kafijas saldējums uz mēles? Ak Leiputrija un debess manā! If my Latvian tikai virmuļo neziņā does that mean I am not good enough to qualify for the membership? As melodramatic as it sounds, are Latvian parents so unreasonable that they cannot compromise for the benefit of all – a win/win situation! This is a social issue first before it is an issue about Latvian education. Reasonable parents may be the prerequisite and the remedy for success. You cannot be all things to all people and demands by parents are only a secondary consideration. Talk to them Kristīne, talk to them …

Lester Thurow, former dean at MIT, author of “The Zero Sum Society,” once remarked that the US elementary and secondary schools have 15,000 school systems (a variety of demands by parents and school boards) each with their own ideas on education and unfortunately all of them mediocre. I would venture to say, from things that I read and hear nowadays, that the education in Latvia is in that same realm – mediocre at best. It may not be a benchmark that we desire, but it is a starting point. We are not alone!

Are we just looking for an excuse for our national and cultural short comings? What do you see as the consequences? Without dragging the red herring across the stage and before we address the educational aspects, we need to give some thought to the social psychological aspects of Latvian culture. It’s a bit like “To be or not to be?” William Shakespeare would have felt at home amongst Latvians as he could have realized the same titles for his plays just be rubbing elbows ar letiņiem: “The Comedy of Errors,” “Much Ado About Nothing,” “Taming of the Shrew,” “As You Like It,” etc.

This sounds more like the old trimdie mission: Let’s save the nation! Let’s save the Latvian language! Latviešus var vienā saujā noturēt. It’s time to acknowledge that Latvians and their language are no longer on the endangered species list.

Hope is not a method! Stiff and rigid does not rhyme well with flexible and adventuresome. Of course, stiff lipped as we are, we need to impart some refined mix of humor. Let’s start by knocking the chip off our shoulders. There is no need to be stuck in a rut. Talk to them Kristīne, talk to them …

Kristīne, your hypothetical fits into the pedagogy mold where everyone toes the same line and where for better results conformity is the name of the game. The drawback is that it’s teacher dependent and it’s not easy for kids to toe the line. In the US military they teach to the level of the dumbest guy in the unit to make sure that all have a clear understanding of the subject. I do not propose that scenario for the Latvian kids.

There are solutions. It’s time to move up one notch from pedagogy and embrace the androgogy methods of teaching and learning. Consider a classroom of inexpensive or even donated computers tied to the internet, after all we do live in the e-age. Now consider applying androgogy teaching methods in a computer classroom where the teacher interacts with each pupil and facilitates the student’s questions and issues. Androgogy, unlike pedagogy, provides for micromanagement of the class the experiential way. Nice fit for a small group of 5 kids with divergent needs, at home and at school. Try it you’ll like it!

Once you get beyond the one-on-one the situation may no longer be ideal, but with androgogy you get closer to the best practices. Androgogy lends itself to tacit learning that is embedded in ones culture. Besides, it is more fun for kids and adults alike. As a note, a successful business or academic organization knows you cannot be everything to everyone without being properly compensated. Think of a single room schoolhouse, like the one in “Mērnieku laiki” and you have kids ages 7 through 16, grades 1 through 6, one teacher – the memorable adlib know-it-all Pietuka Krustiņš. If he could manage it (on the days he was sober), any other e-age Latvian teacher can manage it.

Keep up the dedicated work!

Cheers, Ivars

well, I hate to say I told you so, but certainly in Victoria, Australia, there are now NO exams in latvian at the most senior high school year, what we call the Victorian Certificate of Education.

My understanding is that this has happened because the numbers Australia wide for Latvian language have dropped to such a low level.

Why?

Seems like nobody has wanted to listen to why I dropped out of Latvian school after 2 and a half years in the early 1990s.....(as an adult)

But guess what? There are still about 40-50 other languages one can take at that most senior level here in Vic.....take your pick eg. Hindi, Turkish, Yiddish, Khmer....the list goes on

Perhaps a good case study here for someone, a post mortem on what has happened to the formal teaching of Latvian language and culture in Melbourne? (and why it has flat lined, although of course we all hope that it is only a temporary coma)

i.g.s.
Melb. Australia

(sorry, just re-reading, I meant to write that there is currently NO ACCREDITATION for Latvian in Victoria at the most senior level)

here is how the officials have phrased it....

This study is suspended from 2006

The curriculum, certification and assessment authorities across Australia have decided that, where the national candidature of a nationally assessed language falls below a total of 15, for each of three consecutive years, the language will be suspended until there is evidence that projected study numbers have risen significantly.

Hi Ivar S. ~ thanks for the update. What do we with it? Certainly there are choices. Do we need to characterize this fallout as social, psychological, philosophical, political, a comedy of errors, et cetera? Will this evolve into a blame game or will the Australian Latvians rollover and play possum?

If I understand you correctly, you’re reminiscing that the Latvian toehold on Australia is slipping. How much of a toehold did Latvians ever have in Australia? Are there any pass-fail statistics from the previous years? Maybe we can learn something from the trend-line after we do the correlation analysis. 

While it is an interesting point, in my ignorance I’m not sure whether one should be melancholic or consider it a “call to arms?” What does one do with Latvian accreditation in the down-under Australian State of Victoria?

I grew up in the great State of Massachusetts and don’t recall the state extending any ataboys and atagirls for having learned and mastered Latvian. But that did not bother me; I did the next best thing when I was 10 or 11 years old. I marched down to Edgars Treimanis’ house. He was a scoutmaster and a merit badge counsellor for the Boston Scout District. I recall that he pointed to a large mounted ball with a map of the world on a desk and said, “What do you call that?” I said a “globe.” Than he said, “What do you call the globe in Latvian?” I said “zemeslode.” I had that down pact!

Well, he did not let me off that easy. Next he took out a Latvian newspaper “Laiks” and had me do a written translation of an article into English. Following that, he picked up the “Boston Globe” and asked that I do an oral translation of an article into Latvian. All of that earned me the Latvian-English interpreter merit badge. It’s something that I wore proudly on my Boy Scout sash.

Since you have already invested 2-1/2 years in Latvian school, you could still capitalize on that investment. Find an old Latvian scoutmaster in the Melbourne area who can set you up for at least an honorary Latvian-English interpreter merit badge. You can than wear the badge proudly on your shirtsleeve, pocket or any other place where it stands out. I’m sure that it will be noticed at your DV hosted get together and become a conversation piece.

Cheers, Ivars

Bravo for the reply by Ivars G. to Ivars S.
Ivar G.----you hit the nail square on the head.

Janis D. in Indianapolis Indiana, U.S.A.
Home of the Song Festival in July 2007.
You all come here for a rockin’good time.
DOMAA TAUTAS DEJAS!!!!!

Ivar G, and Jani,

It seems that both of you have missed my point and moreover, seem to be also indulging in that old game of “shoot the deliverer of bad news” while it’s business as usual back at the ranch. Although....it’s not really business as usual here for the Melbourne Latvian community, because there is currently no formal recognition of Latvian language achievement at the senior school level, which also means that it is not possible for the students to proceed to University level, assuming that there are any Latvian studies remaining here at Uni. Level.

I’m sure that it must be immensely satisfying to shoot the messenger, but it doesn’t address the issue of what went wrong here in the Latvian community, and why, with regard to the formal passing on of the Latvian culture and language.

I believe that Ivar G. knows some of the story of my formal involvement with Latvian House here, but for those who don’t, I’ll briefly re-cap.

I’ll leave out most of the story, but one thing that became clear early on was that, even as adults, we were expected to produce a play every year.

Out first attempt was partially in Latvian and partially in English, and we were informed that this was the first time that any play with English language was allowed by the Melbourne Latvian School. This after about 40 years of Latvian settlement in Melbourne!!

The next year, I was heavily involved with producing (and starring in) a play which was a semi humourous piece about re-claiming Latvian land. All well and good as far as I was concerned (and I believe it went down pretty well with the audience and I’m proud to say that there was even a round of applause for the author) but when the 3rd year rolled around, the majority decision was to do “Little Red Riding Hood”. All very cute of course, but simply not at all any substitute for writing contemporary plays in Latvian (or a mixture) dealing with issues of the moment. And that’s when I quit the school, in disgust, with their general wrong headed policies, not to speak of NOT separating religion from the school, which was done long ago in the general educational sphere in Australia during the late 1950s/early 1960s.

So, from this and other signs, it became apparent to me that the Latvian community were (at least formally) single-mindedly pursuing a policy of STRICTLY LATVIAN ONLY.

I (and I’m sure many others) warned of the dangers of doing so. For one, successful Melbourne multicultural communities had long taken the approach of nurturing both English and their traditional language. These communities are still thriving, not without tensions, of course, but those tensions will always be there.

And what some of us warned about has now come to pass.

Ivar G., of course I applaud your initiative in seeking out private tuition with Latvian.

Several points here:

1.  Hanging around with scoutmasters has not had a very good press in recent decades. (That was meant to be humorous!)

2.  Experience at Latvian school showed that the Latvian we learned at home was not always correct, grammatically or otherwise.

3. Schools can offer the opportunity to write and perform in groups, even if some of us were not particularly happy about doing so.

And finally, Ivar and Jani, surely you both cannot be serious if you are suggesting that formal accreditation is irrelevant??

Would you go to a doctor whose training and work experience has not had formal recognition? Would you send your children to a Latvian teacher whose training has not had formal recognition.

I think not.

Fortunately, there are signs that the wave of change is on the way here, for example, with the play “John’s Day”, entirely in English, performed to great acclaim here in recent years. This wave of change might be coming way too late, but clearly it is one sign the Latvian community is beginning to grapple with what they should have seen coming long, long ago.

Naturally, the formal Latvian training must always be focussed predominantly on the Latvian side of things, because that IS it’s entire reason for being. But excluding people from learning about their Latvian past (by shutting out those who were struggling with the Latvian language) was never going to work and never will, particularly where one relationship partner comes from a non Latvian background, which is most likely the rule rather than the exception now, and has been for years.

i.g.s.
Melbourne, Australia

Priecīgas Lieldienas Ivar S., Jāni, everyone!

That was precisely it, the missing point was missing – touché. I am glad that you shed light on your post #6 story to keep this forum going. After all, that what forums are all about to hear other views, to share experiences and to learn from the knowledge of other participants. We don’t necessarily have to agree or see things eyeball to eyeball. There was no intent to put you on the defensive.

Ivars Sulcs starts off: “It seems that both of you have missed my point and moreover, seem to be also indulging in that old game of “shoot the deliverer of bad news” while it’s business as usual back at the ranch. Although....it’s not really business as usual here for the Melbourne Latvian community, because there is currently no formal recognition of Latvian language achievement at the senior school level, which also means that it is not possible for the students to proceed to University level, assuming that there are any Latvian studies remaining here at Uni. Level.”

By “indulging” (I presume that means more than one shot!) in the shooting of the “deliverer of bad news” the story would have ended with the curtains pulled. Secondly, I failed to see it as “bad news” and I still do, because it is an opportunity to light the match under the tailends of Australian Latvians in the State of Victoria. If the shooting results in the death of a messanger the consequences could spell the death of information, learning, progress, LOL, etc. It almost sounds Shakespearean.

Ivars S. comment, “…no formal recognition of Latvian language achievement at the senior school level, which also means that it is not possible for the students to proceed to University level…”

You say not possible! Is it a strict required prerequisite to qualify for most degree courses? Never heard anything like that! Without knowing the detail facts, I’m willing stick my neck out and betchyeh that more Latvians have gone and graduated from Australian universities than there are Latvians with Latvian language accreditations or Latvian-English translator scout merit badges combined! Tongue in cheek (as I can’t get the smilies to work on this forum), not having Latvian accreditation is not a barrier to further education. The world does not stop for the Latvian language. In knowing Latvians I can safely say that most will attempt to be educational achievers with or without the Latvian language. It’s a cultural thing embedded in the genes, called the smart genes. As for knowing Latvian for its own sake, one must have some love, effection or affinity for this language.

~*~

Ivars Sulcs continues: “I’m sure that it must be immensely satisfying to shoot the messenger, but it doesn’t address the issue of what went wrong here in the Latvian community, and why, with regard to the formal passing on of the Latvian culture and language.”

It is not a question of seeking satisfaction with immense intensity – the silly days of duelling for one’s honor by drawing blood are for the most part over. It has been replaced by religious and cultural terrorism … arrrgh!

Earlier on this thread I commented: “This sounds more like the old trimdie mission: Let’s save the nation! Let’s save the Latvian language! Latviešus var vienā saujā noturēt. It’s time to acknowledge that Latvians and their language are no longer on the endangered species list.” Does any one listen?

My basic point on this thread has been that we have to change as times and situations have changed. What worked at one time will not necessarily work today. It should not be a question of “… what went wrong …” but rather what should we do differently in the information and knowledge age to foster the Latvian culture wherever Latvians may be in our world. Latvians need a new approach, sense and a vision for their future as a cohesive and successful culture.

~*~

Ivar, your interest and involvement, which you highlighted in your “Latvian House” story, and the fact that you participate on LOL clearly shows that you are no slouch.

Admittedly, your school play in mixed Latvian and English is something different from what the Latvian social mainstream has been accustomed to seeing and hearing. I have only observed that in Latvian Boy Scout and Girl Guide campfire skits, which were done more for audience effect than for a loss of Latvian words. In that setting even a whole skit in English did not raise any eyebrows or cause social rumblings from the older Latvian generation in the audience. In that sense the Latvian scouting system was more flexible, tolerant and results oriented than the Latvian school system.

While on the subject of learning, I already mentioned andragogy on this thread, as being a more results oriented approach to teaching and learning than the traditional pedagogy. Now that I reflect on the past, scouting was closely aligned with andragogy and experiential learning, as we understand it today. The scouts was where I wanted to be. There was no need for parental coercion. On the other hand, Latvian school was the social and cultural norm, it maintained its learning methods the pedagogical way and then with passing of time the excitement and luster of the old lecture methods waned.

(To be continued …)

(… continuation from post # 10)

The biggest obstacle to fostering Latvian cultural development will be the resistance to change. The Latvians need to raise the bar, seriously review what works and what does not work, build their case and obtain a buy-in from the Latvian society at-large. It needs to do things differently considering the progress the world has made in economic and scientific fields. The backing of the Latvian government is paramount for psychological and substantive support. The whole program needs to have a unified plan from objective through implementing tactics and strategies that can be changed quickly when corrective action calls for it.

Having Latvian schools for expatriates may not be the most successful approach in fostering the future of Latvian culture. It may require the scouting type of approach where experiential classrooms are geared up for knowledge age and dynamics of the 21st Century. That way the focus will be on individual needs yet providing the opportunities to mix with other Latvian kids with varying Latvian language skills.

~*~

Just to make sure that things are not misconstrued I’ll respond to some of Ivars Sulcs points and comments:

I.S.: “Ivar G., of course I applaud your initiative in seeking out private tuition with Latvian.”

-- I’m not sure what you are thinking here? I never sought out private tuition with Latvian! Never needed to, as Latvian is my native language. If you’re implying my merit badge exam, I went there prepared to earn the merit badge, not to learn Latvian or English.

I.S.: “1. Hanging around with scoutmasters has not had a very good press in recent decades. (That was meant to be humorous!)”

-- Less we forget about bad publicity your comment applies even more so to religious priests and ministers, teachers, medical doctors, politicians, etc. Their ratio of bad to good exceeds that of any scoutmasters.

I.S.: “2. Experience at Latvian school showed that the Latvian we learned at home was not always correct, grammatically or otherwise.”

-- Add me to the “did not have that experience column.”

I.S.: 3. Schools can offer the opportunity to write and perform in groups, even if some of us were not particularly happy about doing so.

-- Yes, that they can. But, so can many other organizations and youth groups.

I.S.: “And finally, Ivar and Jani, surely you both cannot be serious if you are suggesting that formal accreditation is irrelevant?? … Would you go to a doctor whose training and work experience has not had formal recognition? Would you send your children to a Latvian teacher whose training has not had formal recognition.”

-- It is my experience that many teachers and instructors in the andragogy field are from outside of the teaching profession. They are better qualified to provide results than the teachers and professors who follow the pedagogy teaching methods. They are not encumbered with the dependency of the learner. As for accreditation in Latvian, in itself I still have difficulty seeing where it would be of value to me.

~*~

Latvians do have nasty tendency to shoot themselves in the foot by not accepting and excluding those individuals and groups that are less proficient in Latvian. This is more of a concern since Latvians can least afford to do so given the small and declining population numbers.

Here’s the challenge, Latvia and Latvians need to have a clearly defined objective for all the global expatriate communities why children as well as adults should be learning Latvian. What should be the objective: (1) learn Latvian for the sake of learning Latvian, (2) learn Latvian to preserve the Latvian language and culture, (3) learn Latvian to unify Latvians globally, (4) learn Latvian to develop a national culture that can compete effectively in the global marketplace, (5) other, etc? There needs to be a benefit carrot rather than a stick somewhere.

Ivar note that in the great State of Massachusetts the Latvians have learned to “Give it the good old Yankee try!” Never say give up.

Cheers, Ivars

Holy mother of motherships! How do I get myself into these discussions?

I’m afraid I have to beg leave to consider your posts for a while, Ivar! (as opposed to just dashing off a quick reply)

In the meantime, I’ll just have to try to adopt the old Ali “Rope A Dope” boxing position (the Rumble in the Jungle fight) in the corner against the ropes while my opponents keep punching away!

But for the present, Ivar, you wrote:

—I’m not sure what you are thinking here? I never sought out
private tuition with Latvian! Never needed to, as Latvian is my
native language. If you’re implying my merit badge exam, I went
there prepared to earn the merit badge, not to learn Latvian or
English.

My apologies! Of course I forgot that quite different circumstances apply in my case, where I had almost completely forgotten most of the Latvian I did know by the time I felt the urge to re-learn the language. To tell the truth, I did want to re-learn by a different method, but at the time was informed that Latvian House in Melbourne was my only option. Even so, my Latvian was never much better than what I call a “kitchen Latvian” and still is not.

But I’ll ponder your writings further as time permits. One of the problems with getting older is that one needs to prioritise knowing that the spare time left to one is dwindling, so this topic is only one of many in my busy life.

(But I’d rather stay busy than just idly walking the streets, as I often see many older people do. Not that I’m retired from the workforce, yet, in any case, so very little time for idly wandering.)

i.g.s.

ok. Here we go again, now that some of those week end “must do” chores are out of the way…..

After attempting to review the parts of this thread that both Ivars G. and I have been discussing, I realised that I must be a really bad communicator. At the very least, I have obviously failed to clarify some points, so here goes.

Ivar, in post #7, you wrote:

“What does one do with Latvian accreditation in the down-under Australian State of Victoria?”

Firstly, I would guess that the remarks below would apply not just in Victoria, but Australia wide, and also that many immigrant nationalities have had similar experiences here.

Regarding post WW2 refugees, especially from Europe, the ones who were granted free passage here (virtually all, that is, as most were lucky if they had arrived with all they had in an old beaten up suitcase) on the condition they were bonded to work for 2 years, more or less where they were told to go and not necessarily in those areas that they had been skilled and trained in.

Not only that, they very soon found that they could not legally continue to practise their profession here unless they beefed up their qualifications in Australian universities or colleges. Some probably had to re-do an entire course, for example, I would imagine that because Australian law is based on the British system, whole chunks of extra study would have been required in order to set up practice here.

Whether this was a case of Australian professionals protecting their own interests or not, who knows?

All this while trying to hold hearth and home together, bring up children and often care for ageing parents AND attend lectures and tutorials in the evening or whenever they were able to. And of course, pass all the exams.

Of course, many didn’t ever make it back to continue in their chosen profession and worse still, there were those who succumbed to alcohol and other ills when they just couldn’t cope with the demands placed upon them. I believe it is well documented that there were some who even killed themselves either quickly or chose a slow death via alcohol abuse.

However, in time, Latvians (and others) found that this high emphasis placed on formal accreditation and recognition could at least reap large benefits for their children, for whom they often had high hopes ie. for them to become lawyers, doctors, dentists, engineers etc.

How did this work?

Very simple, because certainly in Victoria, university and college entrance has mostly been based on the total score for the best 4 subjects at year 12 level. There have been variations on this theme over the years, but essentially, this has been the core of the system for a long time.

How did this benefit Latvians and other Europeans? Well, if they could get their language formally accredited at Year 12 level, the score for that subject would count towards the much desired goal of university or college entrance. So, a Latvian child who had been well schooled in Latvian both at home and at Latvian school could hope for a score of 90 or even close to a perfect 100. Money for jam, you might say, because the work in the other 3 subjects was bound to be tough, especially for parents hoping to get their child into medicine, always the toughest to get into here as far as I can recall. As a rough guide, you would probably need scores well into the 90s for all 4 subjects to get into medicine. Usually, students undertook 5 subjects as a safety net.

I hope that this helps to throw some light on why accreditation at year 12 level for Latvian is still considered by many to be of great importance here.

Of course, many might argue that that system was of greatest benefit to those who had the strongest grounding in Latvian (arguably those who had been born in the DP camps and then came here with their parents etc.) and that as time has worn on, that succeeding generations have reaped little benefit from this system.

I cannot answer that last point, but I certainly know that there are not a few Latvians who want the year 12 accreditation re-instated here, not just from hearsay, but because I happen to work for the organisation that does the re-accrediting in Vic., usually on a 3 year cycle.

Now, regarding pedagogy and andragogy, I admit that I have probably glossed over the andragogy side, especially the scouting side, because it was never one of my passions. At one time, I did want to get into the Australian cub and scout thing, but where I grew up was a baby boomer suburb and all of the cub and scout groups had huge waiting lists, so I never did make it and then lost interest in all of that stuff.

Ideally, though, Ivar, isn’t it a case of having both approaches, if the time and the energy is there?

I also wanted to clarify about the two plays that I participated in while at Latvian school as a student in one of the two adult classes at that time. In both years, the two adult classes performed and worked together, while other plays were done by the teenage students.

In my first year there, the play was partially in English and the creation was very much a joint effort by all students and both teachers. I guess a lot of the English part was my fault, because one of the main characters in the first scene is an adult (not knowing a word of Latvian) arriving at Latvian house for his first Latvian lesson, not even knowing how to find the correct entrance to Latvian House, only to be confronted by the ageing caretaker, who of course doesn’t speak a word of English!

In the second year, the play was totally in Latvian, however the creative effort was largely the work of myself and another student. It was written in English and then translated, with a huge effort by the two teachers in assisting us. I have to say that both teachers put in a lot of work on this, for which they deserve thanks. One of them passed away years ago, but she was still teaching at the school at the age of 80! She had been a teacher in her paid working life, though. Even though the process was labour intensive, it mostly worked, except for one or two jokes that didn’t survive the translation. One of them I pinched from an old (and famous) bit of graffiti near one of our railway lines, which exhorts people to “Mutate now, and avoid the rush!”.

I hope that I’ve covered some of this ground more thoroughly than I have before.

i.g.s.

A wonderful thread, sadly I only had time to scan through so I havn’t picked up many of the points.  In London the Latvian school is a very interesting mix of trimdas Latvians and those recently from Latvia.  I might even suggest it’s a hugely important resource for integrating Latvians who may otherwise feel isolated and so Latvian school is as much about community building as about education. 

Of course, we have a dedicated team of teachers giving many hours of their time to make this a success and the children look forward to Latvian school.  Not all are at ease with conversingin Latvian but none are made to feel inadequate because of that.  And for the parents there’s the bar serving a range of Latvian beers.