The reason that many people have lost faith in science is that too many advocates of science are bragging that science will solve all mankind’s problems, while it is obvious that it has hardly even begun.  People want to know why we are here, where we are going, and what we should do in the meantime.  The answer that we are here because of randon fluctuations, that we are going to disappear without a trace, does not go over well.  Science doesn’t even offer any scientifically verifiable advice of as to what we should be doing during our sojourn here on Earth!

Then we just as well may be disappointed in religion because religion doesn’t explain the structure of DNA, the nature of electricity or help us figure out at what time the train leaving from Boston at 2:30 at 65 miles an hour will pass the train leaving from Hartford at 2:45 and travelling at 72 mph.

Science has its answers; religion its.

Anita

Science doesn’t
>even offer any scientifically verifiable
>advice of as to what we should be doing
>during our sojourn here on Earth!

Ok. I took the bait.
The Bible does offer good advice on what we should be doing during our sojourn here on Earth.
Very simple: Love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself.
If all adhered to this, just think no conflict in Israel/Lebanon; Iraq, and so forth and so on.

I firmly believe that we are not here at random, but at the Will of God, who created all.

I agree that we are here for a purpose, only I want to keep my mind open.  Perhaps we were created and placed here by superintelligent, superpotent aliens who raise us for a purpose known only to them, and totally inconceivable to us.

Spectator wrote the following in post #3:

“I agree that we are here for a purpose, only I want to keep my mind open. Perhaps we were created and placed here by superintelligent, superpotent aliens who raise us for a purpose known only to them, and totally inconceivable to us.”

Well, yes that hypothesis could be an option assuming you knew of no other and better alternative. But that would have meant, you lived in a barrel and viewed the world through the hole. Thus I would suggest to continue seeking evidence to position yourself on one or the other side of that fence.

What do you mean by keeping an open mind? How long can you afford to sit on the fence? Then jump to the right side when things begin to happen? Or.....?

By attempting to prove that God’s existence is a logical necessity, some beg the quesion by assuming the existence for God or something from which they could infer God’s existence. Both, agnosticism and skepticism are self defeating positions, and the theist can offer good reasons for belief in God’s existence. Those reasons can be found in the attached bibliography where arguments from both sides of the fence are discussed for an infinite, necessary and personal Being called “God”.

ATHEISM is not a defensible position. “If God exists, He is outside our frame of reference.”

Also to help you regain some faith in the scientific process check out Dr.Francis Collins (dir of DNA research labs GENO project) book entitled: “The Language of God”.
~~~~~~~~~~
Anselm, St. Proslogion
Geisler, N. L. Christian Apologetics, chs. 12, 13
Hick, John. The Existence of God
Hume, David. Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
Kant, Immanuel. The Critique of Pure Reason
Lewis, C. S. Mere Christianity, part one
Plantinga, Alvin. The Ontological Argument
Tennant, F. R. Philosophical Theology, vol. 1
V.B. Gailitis

Thanks for the references!  Some of them I have not seen.  However, my favorite is Emanuel Svedenborg, and his way of thinking fascinates me. The following partial biography is from http://www.svedenborg.com

“A member of the Swedish Royal Academy of Sciences, he devoted himself to scientific studies and philosophical reflections that culminated in a number of publications, most notably a comprehensive three-volume work on mineralogy (1734) that brought him recognition across Europe as a scientist and philosopher. After 1734 he redirected his research and publishing to a study of anatomy in search of the interface between the soul and body, making several significant discoveries in physiology.

From 1743 to 1745 he entered a transitional phase that resulted in a shift of his main focus from science and philosophy to theology. Throughout the rest of his life he maintained that this shift was brought about by Jesus Christ, who appeared to him, called him to a new mission, and opened his perception to a permanent dual consciousness of this life and the life after death.

He devoted the last decades of his life to studying Scripture and publishing eighteen theological titles that draw on the Bible, reasoning, and his own spiritual experiences. These works present a Christian theology with unique perspectives on the nature of God, the spiritual world, the Bible, the human mind, and the path to salvation. 

Sorry, the full and correct address is below:

http://www.swedenborg.com/chrysalis/about_swedenborg.asp

Disappointment in science response to reply No. 5
Spec wrote:

“Thanks for the references! Some of them I have not seen. However, my favorite is Emanuel Svedenborg, and his way of thinking fascinates me.”
_________________________

Yep, it was a curiousity to me as well, way back when. But when I began to study the “Manual” I found a number of tangents that have led this bright Swedish fellow and his later followers,
the “swedenborgians”, known as The New Church, the Church of New Jerusalem, up the creek, “so to speak”!

Briefly stated:

This is a dangerous mystical non-Christian religion.  Its denial of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit, the vicarious atonement, and rejection of Acts and the Pauline epistles clearly set it outside of Christian orthodoxy.

The total of 50,000 or so adherents of this group,(the USA headquarters in Newtonwille, MA) although denying that Emanuel Swedenborg is the founder of the religion, will admit that they base their primary theology on his writings.

Its Doctrines: Denies the Vicarious Atonement, the Trinity, and deity of the Holy Spirit. While believing Christ is divine, they hold that all religions lead to God, so they hope to bring the world together under a new religious belief, a la Swedenborgian interpretations. Hold to an interesting duality re the Bible as the inspired word of God with two levels: the historical and the deeper spiritual one.

Instead of a personal devil, they hold that the devil is the personification of human evil.  Hell is corrupted human society, and the Scriptures are best interpreted through the writings of Swedenborg.  Angels go through cycles of purity of character where they are sometimes closer and at other it times further from God.  Swedenborg stated that the Acts and Epistles were not inspired as are the four Gospels and the Book of Revelation.  There is no physical resurrection. After death, a person becomes an angel or an evil spirit. Angels are not supernatural creations of God.  Position in the afterlife is based on “the kind of life we have chosen while here on earth.”
At a person’s death, his mind falls asleep for three days in a place called the world of the spirits. Afterwards, he awakens and encounters spirits who’ve died before hand who help him adjust to the afterlife. And some will like this: there is marriage in heaven.;)

As Spec noted: Emanuel Swedenborg was born on January 29, 1688 (died 1772) in Stockholm. His father was a Lutheran minister. Emanuel was very bright and had an inquisitive mind. He was particularly interested in science and religion. In the former, he was recognized as an expert in geology and he also studied astronomy, cosmology, and physics. In 1744 he was stricken with a severe delirium which seems to have affected his mind for the rest of his life since many trance states were attributed to him as his life progressed.
In 1745 he had a vision where loathsome creatures seemed to crawl on the walls of his room. Then a man appeared who claimed to be God. This apparition said that Emanuel was to be the one who would communicate the teachings of the unseen realm to the people of the world. He would be the means by which God would further reveal Himself to the world.
Take your pick, if Emanuel’s revelations don’t suit, one can try Joseph Smith, of Mormon tradition aka church of the Latter Day Saints, aka.... and his special revelations from God in the tablets. I’ll stick to the original biblical revelation and leave the later copycats alone.

Vilis G. <’)))><

In this wide world of God, each of us, being erring mortals, has his own way of going wrong.  However, because God gave each of us free will and the gift of curiosity, I surmise that He wants us to explore, experience and experiment. 

I believe that He wants each of us to find the truth by himself or herself.  What is important is that we actively try to find our way to the Truth.  That is why we are imperfect, because being perfect would leave no room for improvement.

In the end, He will forgive our errors, show us the truth, and set us straight.  The Word of God, as revealed in the Bible, is truth, but, because the mortal minds of humans are imperfect, no one can grasp it in its entirety. Hence the disagreements and the disputes.

On Mon Jul-31-06 in response to No 7 Spec noted his understanding of the way he sees the world. Based on biblical worldview I will add a few comments.

You wrote:
“In this wide world of God, each of us, being erring mortals, has his own way of going wrong. However, because God gave each of us free will and the gift of curiosity, I surmise that He wants us to explore, experience and experiment.”

We all are sinners, the only difference being that, some are saved by the Grace of God. The limited free will leaves us that choice. To satisfy our God given curiousity, we have the priviledge to explore, etc. which is implied by the statement:  “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”.

Then You wrote:
“I believe that He wants each of us to find the truth by himself or herself. What is important is that we actively try to find our way to the Truth. That is why we are imperfect, because being perfect would leave no room for improvement.”

Well, you certainly have the option to your belief, but does it correspond to reality? We are able to discover only a limited truth by ourselves. Some of the most important areas of life we discovered by revelation. Also, man was created sinless, and lost that position by disobedience. Ie. once we could see, but now being “blind” we cannot find our way, and must be led. We are not improving ourselves, but “rather going down the tubes”! However, there is hope! God can make us see, and then with His help we can begin this metamorphosis. “Born again” man will posess Godlike attributes eventually, but while on earth he will never attain perfection.

The you philosophized further:
“In the end, He will forgive our errors, show us the truth, and set us straight. The Word of God, as revealed in the Bible, is truth, but, because the mortal minds of humans are imperfect, no one can grasp it in its entirety. Hence the disagreements and the disputes.”

On what basis should He forgive our errors? He has already shown us sufficient truth to “set us straight”. Why would God play games with His creation, by revealing truth we are unable to comprehend? Yes we do not understand everything just like we do not know all sciences, languages etc. But once we engage in the serious study, most people, able to read and with normal intellect, can grasp what God wants us to understand. As fallen creatures we do not seek Him, but He has sought us out ever since the garden of Eden, when, having disobeyed, Adam hid himself. Most of the disagreements and disputes are not based on the inability to discern the written facts or history as they have been revealed.

Vilis G.  <’))))><
“The message of the Bible mends broken lives and has the power to transform society, not by pointing us to ink on a page, but to the God it reveals. Empty ideologies leave us spiritually starved, but Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35), and the proof is in the eating.”

God is like a good teacher, who assigns to students not only trivial problems that can be understood instantly, but He challenges our creative facilities with problems that must be worked out in time and with effort. God’s word to us is like a seed planted in the ground to grow, flower and ripen to bring in bountiful harvest.

The literal text of the Bible is the container that contains the spiritual truth.  The container can get marred or even mangled through erroneous transcription or translation, but the spiritual truth within remains.  In that way the text of the Bible is analogous to poetry:  the words are merely the form into which the message is poured.  We do not condemn poetic licence, we even may praise it because it helps to make the point of the poem more salient.