That’s a shame, Colvin… I can’t take the whole week off, but was going to take a few days to head up.  Still might - the lineup sounds like it could be very worthwhile, even for someone with an idiosyncratic belief.  It would have been nice meeting you, though.

Thanks for the Latvian Bible link - and within minutes of posting, an LOL participant sent me a link to the relevant English language passage on another site.  People are very helpful here!! 

In any case, I wasn’t familiar with this part of the Bible, but I’ve been pondering it a bit since - it seems to me that in addition to what people SHOULD get from it (the promise of the beginning), it’s also an example of the Bible being written for other times, and that it shouldn’t always be taken literally. 

All these foundations, and this one shall be of emerald, and this one of chalcedony, and this one of topaz (etc., etc.)… now, I looked into it a little bit (just web-surfing), and I can very well accept symbolism and so forth, not to mention a promise of “this wealth will be yours, too” to the poor and downtrodden, but if you take this literally - good grief, that will be one gaudy temple.  It was SO over the top… almost like a commercial for Heaven… “Yessirree Bob, the BIGGEST darn pearl ya’ ever saw, and ALL THIS can be YOURS for the LOW LOW price of obedience… but wait… there’s MORE… cubits of JASPER, too!  And gold, as well!”

Now, I mean no disrespect - as I said, I think it was written for other people, other times; the snake oil aspect has aged.  We look back on advertisements from half a century ago and smile.  This is a two thousand year old ad. 

The morals, however, those remain and should be highlighted.  I just have a problem with those who treat the morals and the wrappings as equally worthwhile/valid.

Anita commented on Jul 14 in post 16

Trust you did get to it for a few days. I was driving through at the time on my way to Calgary to visit our newest granddaughter, and did not have time to stop over to catch some of it.

Did you realize that every human being is born with idiosyncratic belief system, ie. sinful nature...inherited from our forefathers, ie. Adam. It needs to change for us to be acceptable to God and the Bible clearly teaches that the “natural man” can not understand spiritual matters until he/she has been reborn. Thus we try to grapple with such passages as written in the last book of the Bible and interpret it with our limited intellectual capability as best we can. It describes many future events, situations and things that have never before been seen or imagined by humans. No wonder it presents a problem to us, trying to understand it all from the perspective of our current experience and knowledge. That is not to say we are totally unable to understand some of the ideas and issues presented.

Some 55 years ago I became interested and was extensively studying this and several other Old Testament Prophetic Books. In the process I came under the conviction which led me to eventually leave my own idiosyncratic belief system and become a christian in the biblical sense of the word. As long as a person continues to honestly search for the truth, there is the promise that they will be rewarded. Our biggest problem in truth search is our reluctance to drop our preconceived notions about the matter we are investigating as we continue viewing it with our old inherited worldview “glasses”.

Here I can’t answer all the obvious questions that you or others may have, so perhaps some preamble to this book will help in understanding the contents.

Unlike most books of the Bible, Revelation contains its own title: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” (1:1). “Revelation” (Gr., apokalupsis) means “an uncovering,” “an unveiling,” or “a disclosure.” In the NT, this word describes the unveiling of spiritual truth (Rom. 16:25; Gal. 1:12; Eph. 1:17; 3:3), the revealing of the sons of God (Rom. 8:19), Christ’s incarnation (Luke 2:32), and His glorious appearing at His second coming in 2 Thess. 1:7 & 1 Pet. 1:7. In all its uses, “revelation” refers to something or someone, once hidden, becoming visible. What this book reveals or unveils is Jesus Christ in glory. Truths about Him and His final victory, that the rest of Scripture merely allude to, become clearly visible through revelation about Jesus Christ. This revelation was given to Him by God the Father, and it was communicated to the Apostle John by an angel (1:1).

Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:8). Early tradition unanimously identified him as John the apostle, author of the fourth gospel and three epistles. For example, important second century witnesses to the Apostle John’s authorship include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian. Many of the book’s original readers were still alive during the lifetimes of Justin Martyr and Irenaeus—both of whom held to apostolic authorship.

Revelation was written in the last decade of the first century (ca. a.d. 94–96), near the end of Emperor Domitian’s reign (a.d. 81–96). Although some date it during Nero’s reign (a.d. 54–68), their arguments are unconvincing and conflict with the view of the early church. Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian’s reign.

Revelation begins with John, the last surviving apostle and an old man, in exile on the small, barren island of Patmos, located in the Aegean Sea southwest of Ephesus. The Roman authorities had banished him there because of his faithful preaching of the gospel 1:9. While on Patmos, John received a series of visions that laid out the future history of the world.

When he was arrested, John was in Ephesus, ministering to the church there and in the surrounding cities. Seeking to strengthen those congregations, he could no longer minister to them in person and, following the divine command (1:11), John addressed Revelation to them (1:4). The churches had begun to feel the effects of persecution; at least one man—probably a pastor—had already been martyred (2:13), and John himself had been exiled. But the storm of persecution was about to break in full fury upon the 7 churches so dear to the apostle’s heart (2:10). To those churches, Revelation provided a message of hope: God is in sovereign control of all the events of human history, and though evil often seems pervasive and wicked men all powerful, their ultimate doom is certain. Christ will come in glory to judge and rule.

Since it is primarily prophetic, Revelation contains little historical material, other than that in chaps. 1–3. The 7 churches to whom the letter was addressed were existing churches in Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Apparently, they were singled out because John had ministered in them.

Revelation is first and foremost a revelation about Jesus Christ (1:1). The book depicts Him as the risen, glorified Son of God ministering among the churches (1:10ff.), as “the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth” (1:5), as “the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End” (1:8), as the one “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (1:8), as the First and the Last (1:11), as the Son of Man (1:13), as the one who was dead, but now is alive forevermore (1:18), as the Son of God (2:18), as the one who is holy and true (3:7) as “the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God” (3:14), as the Lion of the tribe of Judah (5:5), as the Lamb in heaven, with authority to open the title deed to the earth (6:1ff.), as the Lamb on the throne (7:17), as the Messiah who will reign forever (11:15), as the Word of God (19:13), as the majestic King of kings and Lord of lords, returning in glorious splendor to conquer His foes (19:11ff.), and as “the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star” (22:16).

Many other rich theological themes find expression in Revelation. The church is
warned about sin and exhorted to holiness. John’s vivid pictures of worship in heaven both exhort and instruct believers. In few other books of the Bible is the ministry of angels so prominent. Revelation’s primary theological contribution is to eschatology, i.e., the doctrine of last things. In it we learn about: the final political setup of the world; the last battle of human history; the career and ultimate defeat of Antichrist; Christ’s 1,000 year earthly kingdom; the glories of heaven and the eternal state; and the final state of the wicked and the righteous. Only Daniel rivals this book in declaring that God providentially rules over the kingdoms of men and will accomplish His sovereign purposes regardless of human or demonic opposition.

No other NT book poses more serious and difficult interpretive challenges than Revelation. The book’s vivid imagery and striking symbolism have produced 4 main interpretive approaches:

The preterist approach interprets Revelation as a description of first century events in the Roman Empire. This view conflicts with the book’s own often repeated claim to be prophecy 1:3; 22:7,10,18,19. It is impossible to see all the events in Revelation as already fulfilled. The second coming of Christ, for example, obviously did not take place in the first century.

The historicist approach views Revelation as a panoramic view of church history from apostolic times to the present—seeing in the symbolism such events as the barbarian invasions of Rome, the rise of the Roman Catholic Church (as well as various individual popes), the emergence of Islam, and the French Revolution. This interpretive method robs Revelation of any meaning for those to whom it was written. It also ignores the time limitations the book itself places on the unfolding events (cf. 11:2; 12:6,14; 13:5). Historicism has produced many different—and often conflicting—interpretations of the actual historical events contained in Revelation.

The idealist approach interprets Revelation as a timeless depiction of the cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil. In this view, the book contains neither historical allusions nor predictive prophecy. This view also ignores Revelation’s prophetic character and, if carried to its logical conclusion, severs the book from any connection with actual historical events. Revelation then becomes merely a collection of stories designed to teach spiritual truth.

The futurist approach insists that the events of chaps. 6–22 are yet future, and that those chapters literally and symbolically depict actual people and events yet to appear on the world scene. It describes the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus Christ (chaps. 6–19), the Millennium and final judgment (chap. 20), and the eternal state (chaps. 21,22). Only this view does justice to Revelation’s claim to be prophecy and interprets the book by the same grammatical-historical method as chaps. 1–3 and the rest of Scripture.
For additional ref. one can check The MacArthur Study Bible.

Make no mistake, if heaven is the ideal most humans search for, this book certainly has some “sales” appeal and “snake oil” is a rather jaded understanding of the majestic theme. And there is more than the precious stones and metals that should appeal to our soul. And YES, it is written for us today and any other future generations that may read this book. The language is quite universal, and these materials are equally precious to us as they were to readers 2000 yrs ago. The many warnings and issues described therein should wipe away any languishing smile from our faces as we contemplate those horrific events still facing the world.

The “middle east pot” is continuing to boil ever so steadily and with increasing pace, just as predicted. A very sobering reminder that the 2000 year old stuff is more relevant to our generation than we would care to admit. But the hope extended in this Book is a solace to the seeker, as it reveals who will be victor in the end. 

I for one treat the wrapping as very relevant and valid. Because without the “wrapping” the morals would be naked and without meaning. What reason would there be for morals if God does not exist?

Vilis G.  <’))))><
“The message of the Bible mends broken lives and has the power to transform society, not by pointing us to ink on a page, but to the God it reveals. Empty ideologies leave us spiritually starved, but Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35), and the proof is in the eating.”

>relevant and valid. Because without the
>"wrapping" the morals would be
>naked and without meaning. What reason
>would there be for morals if God does
>not exist?

What an extraordinary question!!

I can think of many reasons for the existence of morals, deity/deities or no deity/deities. For one, we would probably all descend into violence and corruption, leading society to self destruct sooner or later.

I don’t believe that one has to be religious to plainly see why morals exist. It’s really just a matter of common sense.

The fact is: people(s)seem to need myths and mythology, whether that be via moral tales, purported sacred texts, novels, movies etc.

To my mind, to treat the Bible (or other so called sacred texts) as being more important than (say) a Hollywood Western (such as High Noon) seems very strange indeed. These are all stories which attempt to explain life to us, and the fact that we, as a society, rate the Bible so highly is a function of our culture, an accident of birth, if you will. Somewhat akin to Kenneth Clark’s view of Western Civilization being the superior to any other....sheer nonsense.

When I read stuff like this Ivars, I always take comfort in remembering my own desperate fight against Christians for over 20 years before becoming one myself.

There is always hope - even for the apparently hopeless! 

>When I read stuff like this Ivars, I
>always take comfort in remembering my
>own desperate fight against Christians
>for over 20 years before becoming one
>myself.

Only 20 years!? Good heavens, man! I’ve been at it for about 38 years....and still going strong!

And still not a member or supporter of any football team, either!

But if I had to choose, it would be the betting “double” of Buddhism and the Western Bulldogs!

>Only 20 years!? Good heavens, man! I’ve
>been at it for about 38 years....and
>still going strong!

38 years, Ivars.....
That would suggest that you’re almost twice as obtuse as I!

Ivar, you probably don’t realize the significance nor implications of my statement.

Without prolonging this post with details and trying to shatter your belief system I would only note that what you or I believe has little to do with the reality of the factual situation.

Ever ask yoursel the question and wonder why people (as opposed to other creatures) seem to need myth’s and mythology, or religious activity?

As society’s moral and ethical mores gradually slide into the abyss, you may have noticed the gradual increase of violence and evil in our society throughout the globe. Apparently the evolutionary progress has not solved this age old problem and secular humanists are again shown how wrong they have been.

Yes, to a carnal mind the Bible is of no more value than the latest current Hollywood movie, and apparently by “sheer accident”, you put the cart before the horse in stating that culture is the reason for rating Bible highly. Obviously never looked into the previously suggested material on the subject. Sorry to see that.

VBG <’))))><